Cheap vs Expensive media with identical scans?

vbimport

#1

I’ve asked this question a few times already since I’ve started using this board, but so far no one gave me a conclusive answer.

The general trend I see in posts is people tell you to buy TY or Verbatim and don’t consider other brands if you want reliability.

However, depending on the combination of burner and software each person haves, some cheaper discs give out great quality scans, sometimes as good as with those oh-so-famous-oh-so-great TY or Verbatim.

So why paying more ? I mean, the only criteria I’m aware of to know how good a disc should be in one’s burner is testing it with a software scanner like Nero CD Speed or K-Probe. If I get the same level of quality in those scans using a very expensive media and a not so expensive media, what other factors should I know about that would make me pay more ?

Some people will say, an expensive disc will last more. But what is that statement based on, exactly, if that expensive disc gives no better a scan than the cheaper disc in my burner ? This stuff has been around for so little time, who actually knows that for a fact ? Aren’t people just falling to the good old pay-for-the-brand-name trap ? If not, I’d like to hear the arguments that can prove me otherwise.

Sure, I see lots of posts badmouthing this or that media and controversial posts about some brands. But they all seem to come from people that just got bad luck with a particular media and the combination of burner and software they’re using, or got a bad batch, or ignored not so good scans, or didn’t even scan the discs originally after burning them and then complain about having problems with them after a period of time.

My basic question is this:

Do people know for a fact that an expensive media will last longer than a not so expensive media, when they both produce the same scan quality in the same burner and system ? If so, why ?

Thank you very much. :slight_smile:


#2

The media that is considered cheap and/or poor quality is deemed that by the number of problems reported vs with those considered high quality. TY media is consistently good (very few coasters, low error levels, good playback) unlike media like CMC that is very inconsistent. Why take chances? With the prices of good media like TY and Verbatim being very affordable in many places there’s no reason to buy anything else. Why are people so cheap?


#3

Speaking for myself, why am I “cheap” ? Firstly because I’m not rich, and secondly because and I like to be informed and take logical and rational decisions on where to invest my money as a consumer. If I can get similar quality for much lower price, I wil.

By the reasoning of some people, we would have all to agree that Plextor represents the best optical media devices, Adidas the best sports footware, Sony the best home video systems and so on. But at least some of us know that these are false ideas created by clever marketing, uninformed and narrow minded opinions and group behaviour.

The reports I’ve seen so far tell me that TY works for most people, but that doesn’t tell me that cheaper media can’t work as well for some people. It also doesn’t tell me that I’m taking greater chances, since I have yet to read anything that would make me conclude in a satisfactory way that TY will, in fact, endure a longer time than a cheaper media with the same level of quality in scans.

Facts. Give me facts. Tell me something like “I burned 50 TY’s and 50 CMC’s three years ago, all in the same exact system and setup, all carefully scanned with the same exact scan quality results, all stored and/or used in the same way during those 3 years, and right now all the 50 TY’s are as new but the half of those CMC are unreadable”. Or if you are in the knowing (let’s say, you’re a qualified engineer working with this stuff), give me technical background about the manufacturing of both discs that would convince me that the extra investment has a real, factual, practical meaning to it.


#4

I’ve not seen any evidense of any “inconsistancy” in CMC media. I use a lot of it and every batch has performed the same. There’s no real evidence that ANY DVDR media is either reliable or unreliable in terms of how long it will last. As always, the end user has more to do with that than the media itself does. Certainly there are examples of really cheap media that fails in a short period of time, that’s not news. But amongst the established makers of media, (including CMC), there’s no reason not to believe that they are all equally capable of lasting for some time. Likewise, they are all equally capable of failing in, say, 2 years. We simply do not know.

We DO know from experience that those discs that show low error rates after burning are more likely to last longer.


#5

I have been recording stuff to tape for the past 20 years or so. All the tapes I checked out last year when doing a cleanup were working just fine, minus the expected bit of noticeable degradation in the ones I used more often along the years.

Wouldn’t it be funny if after all these decades of video and media evolution, the latest, supposedly much more reliable and durable digital media we’re using turns out to be much less reliable and durable than an old lousy tape ?

Why aren’t people pressing the industry with these questions ? How come people are accepting as something “normal” that they buy a full pack of DVDRs which doesn’t work ? And that they buy DVDRs in boxes which don’t have the id code of the actual media pressed on them, when that could actually mean they won’t work with their equipment ? Aren’t they bothered with their money and the stuff they’re recording ? I think we need a general riot directed at the hardware and media manufacturers, and urgent revised laws to regulate all this on behalf of the public interests.


#6

Yo kweldood-

You certainly have the right to your opinion - and if you have found a media that has the same low errors as good media - then there is certainly no reason to pay for the more expensive stuff - if it works for you-

However - I don’t see where you have found such media in your postings - so I have to assume that your thoughts are in theory as opposed to being subjective - therefore - use whatever media you feel works for you-

Me - I’ll continue to use my 8x -R Riteks, Taiyo Yudens, Verbatim and Maxells - as they work very well for me and I don’t have to waste a lot of time dealing with coasters or movies that crap out somewhere during the replay-

Mike


#7

Fact: my first burner was a Pioneer A03 that cost me 400 bux. I was an idiot and bought princo discs at the time to burn with it. I also bought the odd HP disc and verbatim DVDR. NONE of the princos that I burned from that time work anymore. They will not read, they are not seen at all. The HP media and the Verbatim media still work perfectly, even the Pioneer dvd I got with the drive still reads.

Quality media lasts. Cheap crap media will not.

All these discs were stored in a dark cabinet with tonnes of sillica packets to ensure there was no moisture. This is only 3-4 years of storage. I will take quality media over quantity ANY day.


#8

i agree with bigmike7…seems like you’re just ruffling feathers here. if the media works for you and you haven’t had any problems, then by all means go for it. let those who wish to “waste” their money on more expensive media do so…to each his/her own. i don’t think anyone should need confirmation/affirmation/dissension about their media choices…it’s a choice just like any other in life…one that’s up to you and you alone.


#9

Were those Princo carefully scanned for quality after burning, showing high quality results about on the same level as more expensive media ?

I’m getting uniform top notch scans with CMC based media and others, as good in overall terms as the best Verbatim, TDK and so on I’ve tested.

Drpino certainly agreed, my intention isn’t to ruffle any feathers, it’s the genuine desire to know and learn about the facts since I’m new to DVD recording. I am merely seeking advice. But I’d like to make sure that I learn the right way and based on the right facts, not just blindly follow preconceived ideas of the same kind that my life experience have confirmed time and again are wrong. If they are actually right when it comes to DVD recording in particular, all I need is some input backed up by conclusive arguments and proven facts, of which I have yet to read any.


#10

I used to backup Episodes of Farscape on bulkpaq 4x DVD+R. I always ran a nero speed check and used to get a perfect curve on scans with no jumps or dips. They worked fine on my standalone DVD player with no problems. I stored them in my Aluminium 500 disc DJ carry case. Over a few months I started to get errors on some discs (not all). My dvd player would skip some bits and freeze on others. The player was fine as it would play any original discs with no problems and some backed up discs with no problems. The discs even froze when I played them with Power DVD on my pc. I even re-ran Nero Speed check and started getting cyclic redundancy errors.

I rebacked some of my backups and some from the original discs on Maxell 4X DVD+R discs which are Tayio Yuden. So far I have had no problems at all.

Obviously there could be many factors that resulted in my discs becoming unreadable that may have nothing to do with the actual quality of disc (burner quality, storage… etc).

Theres no scientific reason that I know of which points to saying that some discs are better than others. All I can say is that from my experince that I found some cheaper discs to not be as good as some slightly moe expensive ones. You will also find other people on this forum who have had a similar experience to me. I think its all about peoples experience rather than any scientific experiment


#11

fair enough, didn’t mean to offend if i did. i understand and agree with where you’re coming from.

personally, i haven’t bought any “supposed cheap media” ever (save for one 25pk spindle of TDK 8X DVD+R that were CMC) but they burned just fine. can’t say anything about the longterm viability of said media since it’s only been like 2 months.

right now i only have TY, RICOHJPN and MCC media so i think/hope i’ll be OK in the long run. i do have to say that i have some TDK 4X DVD+R that is RICOHJPN01 that were burned nearly 2 years ago and they both scan and play flawlessly. i posted a scan somewhere, just can’t remember where. i’ll dig it up if you want…just holla @ me! :smiley:


#12

I concur. @the original post, I can put you in touch with several people on another site who lost a number of backups from using Princo DVD-R. The point is that there is no savings in media costs, if you burn to cheap media and end up having to burn half (or all) of the discs from that spindle all over again. Also keep in mind that just because cheap media works in your DVD Player, doesn’t mean it is going to work in another player. I enjoy going over to my buddies’ houses and being able to watch my backups with them. Alot of them only have PS2 consoles as their DVD Players which are notoriously picky for reading DVDR media. I like the fact that with my movie backups on Ritek G03/G04 and Taiyo Yuden TYG02 DVD-R, I can pop the movie in and I will know for sure whether or not it works. Given the very mixed results with compatibility issues on cheap media (I have seen first hand the effects of Princos being hit and miss for working, in my own XBOX), I for one will gladly pay a little extra for it. It’s not like quality media costs an arm and a leg either. My Taiyo Yudens which are considered among the highest quality run me a whopping 60 cents a disc with shipping. If you buy in large quantities they can be had for cheaper. Princo and other cheap quality manufacturers usually run about 30-40 cents a disc with shipping. So it’s not like you are saving a giant amount of money by going with low end media versus the highest quality. I guess I am just saying that with the relatively low price differential that it isn’t worth the gamble. Wouldn’t you feel like a complete ass if you went over to a buddies’/relative’s house and your backup didn’t work because you used cheap quality media?


#13

If you want conclusive scientific evidence as to quality and deteriation over time you are going to have to wait 2-3 years. There is currently a long term evaluation in progress that is looking into exactly this question and their goal is to provide a measurement standard for different brands of media. In the mean time you will have to decide for yourself if the quality difference is worth it.

There seems to be evidence that errors increase over time and, consequently, better burns should outlast burns with higher errors. I have a lot of Prodisc S03s with errors in the 100s. I also have a lot of S03s with errors in the teens and some TY media that has errors in the teens. If I ever see a pattern I can let you know but this is only for one media. I guess you will just have to wait.