CD-R Disk Identification Method

I need some information about :

  • the OSJ Code Meaning and standards .
  • “Sure/Certain” CD Disk Identification Methods.

I’m trying to understand if is it possible to have a “Sure/Certain” CD Disk Manufacturer Identification Method and if OSJ/ATIP Disk Identification Method can be considered a “certain” method. Namely if the OSJ/ATIP Code read with CDRecord (Or Nero InfoTool) is , for example, “Mitsubishi Chemicals Corporation” can we affirm that the Manufacturer is absolutely and without any doubt “Mitsubishi Chemicals Corporation” ?

Here my questions :

  1. It seems to me that ATIP can be faked. So, is there any “official” documentation about ATIP faked ?

  2. If the ATIP can be faked , how easily can be faked ? This it is, of course, very important from my point of view, in order to define a sort method’s rating (or trustworthiness degree) about OSJ/ATIP Disk Manufacturer Identification Method.
    If ATIP can be faked easily or frequently, the rating is low. Otherwise if it very very difficult (but non impossible) to fake the ATIP then the rating is high ( 99%).
    For example, some ATIP Information Tool Readers (Smartburn) displays : Manufacturer “Maybe” = Mitsubishi Chemicals Corporation.

  3. If OSJ Disk Manufacurer Identification Method is not a “exact” -“certain” method, I there any other method or tip that can be considered more accurate ?

  4. Or absolutely accurate , unassailable? ( a sort of DNA test that gives the total certainty )

  5. Is there any up to date information about [Subject 2-33] ( from www.cdrfaq.org/ )

May you help me?
I really appreciate your suggestions .

Thanks in advance !

[QUOTE=MrDoubt;2154180]1) It seems to me that ATIP can be faked. So, is there any “official” documentation about ATIP faked ?[/QUOTE]

Yes, ATIPs can be ‘faked’. Of course there’s no documentation of any kind about it.

  1. If the ATIP can be faked , how easily can be faked ? This it is, of course, very important from my point of view, in order to define a sort method’s rating (or trustworthiness degree) about OSJ/ATIP Disk Manufacturer Identification Method.
    If ATIP can be faked easily or frequently, the rating is low. Otherwise if it very very difficult (but non impossible) to fake the ATIP then the rating is high ( 99%).
    For example, some ATIP Information Tool Readers (Smartburn) displays : Manufacturer “Maybe” = Mitsubishi Chemicals Corporation.

The ATIP of a CD-R depends of the stamper used. You can’t change the ATIP of the stamper.
You’ll find very little to none CD-Rs with faked ATIPs today. One reason may be that no reputable stamper supplier like Plasmon will manufacture stampers with TY or MCC ATIP. The other may be that there’s not that much benefit from faking ATIPs than with DVD MIDs.

It’s completely different with DVDRs. For them, it’s only a configuration thing. Every manufacturer could give every DVDR line any MID that they like. And the benefit is significant.

  1. If OSJ Disk Manufacurer Identification Method is not a “exact” -“certain” method, I there any other method or tip that can be considered more accurate ?
  2. Or absolutely accurate , unassailable? ( a sort of DNA test that gives the total certainty )

A software can’t tell you if the ATIP is genuine or not.
Just look at the CD-R and compare it to genuine ones of that ATIP.
As far as I know, no manufacturer ever faked stamper codes because it would be useless for them.

I’ve been thinking a bit about this – but so far I haven’t thought of any reason as to the benefit to fake a MID. The most likely one I can think of is that it would give the genuine MID holder a lowered reputation, and so open up the market a bit when their sales go down, but I have a feeling it’s a bit contrived, and it doesn’t seem very significant.

Could you (or someone else) perhaps elaborate a bit?

[QUOTE=athulin;2161787]I’ve been thinking a bit about this – but so far I haven’t thought of any reason as to the benefit to fake a MID.[/QUOTE]

The manufacturer can sell their discs for more money. On the wholesale market blank unbranded DVDs with a Taiyo Yuden or MCC MID code can be passed off as genuine discs and sold for just a little bit cheaper so that the buyer thinks that they are getting a bargain. Or more likely the wholesale buyer could ask the factory to produce fake discs which they will then knowingly sell on to retail customers.

There is of course never any benefit to the end user who is unfortunate enough to buy fake discs.

[QUOTE=athulin;2161787]I’ve been thinking a bit about this – but so far I haven’t thought of any reason as to the benefit to fake a MID. The most likely one I can think of is that it would give the genuine MID holder a lowered reputation, and so open up the market a bit when their sales go down, but I have a feeling it’s a bit contrived, and it doesn’t seem very significant.

Could you (or someone else) perhaps elaborate a bit?[/QUOTE]

The main benefit from MID faking is the better firmware support.
It is very expensive and difficult to get a firmware support - it could cost up to the 30000$ for a single MID and drive. And without proper fw support your media cannot be write at full speed and good quality (it is a quite big problem when you are trying to sell and market a 16x media and most of RW drives can write them only at 4x speed…)
Therefore most of smaller manufacturers from Asia and South America are producing media with faked MID codes (in 95% of cases with faked TY or MCC MIDs), even if they have their own MID codes. Actually, most of such manufacturers never made any (or only a very limited amount of) media with own MIDs. They needed the own MID (and some media samples with this MID code) only for the process of getting a license for DVDR manufacturing (see the attachment for the example of such certificate).

Example of companies, which do have own MIDs, but do produce media with fake MID codes:
Videolar Brasil (own MID code: VIDEOLAR 002/003, using fake TY codes)
Infosmart Hong Kong (own MID code: INFOSMART03, using fake TY & MCC codes)
Ul-Tran Technologies Taiwan (own MID code: ULTRAN 212, using fake MCC codes)

example of DVD+R license (note: Infomedia is a serious company, they have in common with MIDs faking)


[QUOTE=Womi;2155276]Yes, ATIPs can be ‘faked’. Of course there’s no documentation of any kind about it.[/QUOTE]

:iagree:. And generally, ATIP faking is a quite rare (unlike the faking of MID codes). There were only a few case of media with ATIP codes that I have heard about:
(most likely) Princo was making some CD-Rs with fake TY ATIP
Customer Pressing Oosterhout (The Netherlands) and CDA Datentrager Albrechts (Germany) did fake TY ATIP too.
Some smaller companies from Taiwan, Macau (Long-U Industries??) and China were making a media with fake Ritek and CMC media codes. And one quite big company from China (I cannot remember its name now) is still producing CD-Rs with fake MBI ATIP (along with fake MCC DVD media :rolleyes:).