CD Data Vs CD Audio

vbimport

#1

Hi,

I have read some post around in the forum, I am testing in this moment two media:


TDK CD-R XG Audio
Verbatim DataLife Plus AZO

I have burned the TDK at 4x and the Verbatim at 1x.
But, what impresses me is the difference you can hear in sound.
The midrange is more present in the Audio CD and the sound is in general “warmer”.

Are you aware of any CD-R data media whose sound is reproduced better than Verbatim? (I mean warmer)

Just for your information, I am certainly a bit spoilt and difficult, 'cause my main listening source is vinyl, in principle for me CD has never been a quality format, SACD and DVD-A are much better, but that’s another story…
This is to give you an idea why, I am looking for the “best in the worst” in terms of CD-R Media.

Thanks guys
Alex
:confused:


#2

Make sure you’re not imagining things by playing the discs in the CD-RW drive.
Try analog and digital playing.
You shouldn’t hear any difference when you play in digital mode.
If you hear the same difference again, I’d bet it’s your imagination :wink:


#3

Minix,

I am sure of what I say, I have done blind testing (to be sure) but it was not needed, really.

I listen to music only through Hi-End standalone DVD-Player.

The way CD Media are produced and the materials they are made are different, this is enough to justify an audible sound diversity.

Cheers
Alex
:wink:


#4

maybe you should try a better player. ?

I see that you have “good hearing”, could you try your blind test with the CD-RW drive?
To check that it’s not only a media issue.

Playing in digital mode, you shouldn’t hear differences…


#5

I don’t know what you meen by “playing in digital mode” when playing on standalone hi-fi player and not on pc with media player?

But blank media does sound different on standalone players (exept maybe on those players that buffer data like some meridians for example). This also applies when usin external DAC (with the buffer remark from above).

The best sounding media for my cd-writer (yamaha 3200) is the Verbatim Audio cd-r 74 min. In fact the the 74 min media sounds better than the 80 min. media from the same brand and type.

No difference with windows media player in digital mode though - here you’re absolutely right.


#6

Technically speaking minix is right, digital is digital…but Metallo isn’t imagining it.

Actually what happens is the actual quality (more type) of layers used within the actual CDR media is streaming better on that specific player. This is why copy protections that use Sub Channel Errors (or scratched CDs) do have a degraded sound quality.

Of course both CDs RAW PCM data will be about the same (errors here and there change it slightly) but the way the laser is streaming it does make a difference.

Lower quality CDRs won’t stream as well and thus some ranges will actually be lost. So depending on the type of media, type of player you have (hard to say which ones work best with each since there’s NO set standard) it makes a difference.

Cheap layered CDRs & DVDRs will stream at lower quality on some players, it is always a good idea to use quality brands for better reading + longer life.

TDK & Verbs are top in my opinion.


#7

Audiocopy,

Thanks for your comment.

Technically speaking minix is right, digital is digital…but Metallo isn’t imagining it.

I am not sure how to interpret your statement, but to me we are
slowly getting to the point.
I have read many comments, I have read many possible reasons, but this confirms my initial statement, at least, when playing on hi-fi equipment, the support makes the difference, and what a difference!
Blind testing is only a confirmation for me, but as I said previously, when you are into hi-fi for more than 30 years and the difference is so evident, blind test it’s only a formality.

If played on PC I can agree with Minix, no difference.

As far as the media are concerned, on other forums I’ve been recommended to use:

Mitsui
Taiyo Yuden (Fuji & TDK CDs “made in Japan” are actually TY discs)
Ricoh Platinum (only the old low-speed discs (8x-12x) that claim “200 year life”, if I can still find any)

Regards


#8

Your statement is very common amongst ‘audophiles’, but unfortunately it can be proven
wrong by basic knowledge of CD playback (I won’t even comment on the ‘streaming’ thing).
Whatever difference you might hear cannot come from the media type, and as usual in
such case only ABX tests and WAV extraction+comparison are considered valid arguments,
see http://forum.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61864 and
http://forum.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?&threadid=64708


#9

As I said, there are many opinions coming from different angles, unfortunately, the only one that counts to me is the listening test and in my case, I have no doubt about the final result.

This Verbatim DataLife Plus AZO play absolutely metallic comparing to many other supports.
It is so evident, that even some friend of mine, without telling them anything prior to the listening section, have revealed it.

Anyhow, it’s good to hear different opinions.

Thank you


#10

I would be interested in your blind test. Do you mean that someone played the CD without telling you which one it was, and you guessed that it was the Verbatim or the original ?


#11

No, there are opinions and there are facts. And facts come from how a CD
player work, not from your ears and/or your imagination. Now I didn’t say
that there’s no difference in what you hear, but that your test proves
nothing and therefore that your conclusion was still considered wrong.
From your single test you could have also concluded that 1x burning is
better than 4x, which would not have made more sense.

Anyway if you’re interested to find the correct explanation, read the threads
I mentioned and do the ABX/WAV tests, otherwise keep thinking what you want
and buy only Verbatim discs, it’s fine with me.


#12

This reminds me of something that I read in Stereophile back around 94 or 95. They had a Meridian stand alone burner and copied a stamped CD on the Meridian via (I think) S/PDIF. The recording media was TDK (back in the day of $70 blank CD’s) and the playback transport from which it was recorded I think was also a Meridian. Been a long time.

Anyway they claimed the recorded one sound better than the original stamped version from which it was copied. They figured it had something to do with jitter.

It’s been a long time though.

Anyone want to read it? I can scan it and email.


#13

Maybe I didn’t make myself clear enough.

I have recorded two different media, both same source and same content, recording speed was different at the time I made the test, but since then, I re-made the same test at the same speed and I have verified that speed has nothing to do with the difference in sound (in this case).

I have listened to both supports on the same DVD Player and my final statement is that the two media sound very differently (see detail in my first posting).

TDK CD-R XG Audio sounds much better then Verbatim DataLife Plus AZO.

That’s it.

The reason why it sounds differently cannot be neither the burner nor the DVD Player, but only the media.
The reason why the two media sound different can be multiple and this is out of discussion.

As Spath says, there are facts and opinions.
The fact is not debatable, the two meadia sound different.
The opinions on why the media sound different can be many and various.

I do not care if my conclusion is considered wrong, because I am 100% sure of my statement.
What counts is the fact that two discs sound different, the ear if the first and overall, the best judge.

And…finally, the explanation is not important to me, because it’s only a question of time and I will find the media that best fits my tastes.

This is my last post on this subject, because for me the discussion , in the present terms, has no longer value.

Thank you for all the comments you made!

Regards


#14

Hi Metallo,

first a small OT:

this thread could have become a flame, but this not happened because you are a polite man of good manners… let me tell you that I appreciate that.

I just want to make a remark…
In my opinion, it is nonsense to say “the reason why it sounds differently is the DVD player” or “the reason why it sounds differently is the media”. You have to say “the reason why it sounds differently is the DVD PLAYER/MEDIA COMBINATION” (or maybe, DVD Player/Media/Burner combination, but I think that the burner is less important in this case). They can not be divided…

Regards,

ET

Originally posted by Metallo

The reason why it sounds differently cannot be neither the burner nor the DVD Player, but only the media.


#15

I’m glad people can express their opinions w/o it turning into some kind of flame war :wink:

I agree to some extent with what is being said, though I know it has to do with how the player(s) are streaming the PCM. This can be proved simply that digital data are 99.9% the same, but it differs on the analog output. I agree that can be due to multiple reason(s) whatever they may be the point is CDR media does differ in playback depending on types.

We know it is a fact that optical media differs in life, we know brands make a differnce (how much you’re willing to spend) so we can safely and logically assume this is the reason…though can’t prove this.

On the software level, only errors will effect the streaming such as too many errors (Redbook only allows 10%) so if you go beyond that…then there’s your answer. But the MMC does NOT specify if 10% or less errors will effect streaming sound quality, we assume it doesn’t.


#16

> On the software level, only errors will effect the streaming such as
> too many errors (Redbook only allows 10%) so if you go beyond that…
> then there’s your answer. But the MMC does NOT specify if 10% or
> less errors will effect streaming sound quality, we assume it doesn’t.

Great, except that errors are corrected by hardware and not software,
that the Red Book nowhere talks about 10% limit, that MMC has nothing
to do with audio playback specifications and that everything is specified
when there are less errors than the CIRC capabilities. Opinions are nice,
but spreading wrong information doesn’t help anybody.


#17

I never said errors were corrected by Software Spath.

If you want to acuse me of childish stuff go ahead…but I haven’t time to argue about with hot headed “mod” on here I don’t play these games.

Read the MMC again and this time use the English manual. I would copy and paste it here for you but then again I haven’t the time to bother with that.


#18

No time… right. In the future, don’t pretend to explain more than you
actually know or to quote documents you have not read, you’ll save
yourself a lot of embarrassment.


#19

Unfortunately I was wrong… :sad: :sad:

Originally posted by eltranquil

this thread could have become a flame, but this not happened …


#20

@Metallo

Just for your information, I am certainly a bit spoilt and difficult, 'cause my main listening source is vinyl, in principle for me CD has never been a quality format, SACD and DVD-A are much better, but that’s another story…

May I ask you, why the CD technology doesn’t satisfy you?
If you think vinyls sound so much warmer and have more “atmosphere”, then you should record them with a good soundcard. Then listen to the wave and tell me if it sounds worse.

BTW: I think the increase in quality from records to CDs (actually the PCM format 44100/16/Stereo) was much higher than any other format improvements (SACD, DVD-A) will ever reach it.

The crucial point is that the media no longer determines the end-quality of digital systems. No matter how bad pickups or media are, as long as the same data passes the DAC, everything will be just fine (jitter myths excluded for now). In theory I could even imagine to store digital data on a regular LP. You would need a extreme powerful modulation and error correction and it wouldn’t
make much sense - but it could work :slight_smile:

[philosophy]
Human beings are strange: They transfer digital data over thousands of kilometres without any loss and don’t believe their player is capable doing same over a much smaller distance. It’s not the first time, I don’t understand my environment …
[/philosophy]

@audiocopy

This is why copy protections that use Sub Channel Errors (or scratched CDs) do have a degraded sound quality.

I wouldn’t claim, subchannel errors degrade the sound quality, since the main channel (2352 bytes per sector) would be unaffected. More likely navigating and sync issues are to expect.
To have a quality impact, the player would have to perform interpolation all the time.
And don’t protected audio discs have a eroneous main channel?

Besides that, any allowed amounts of errors per second, either specified in the red book, or not, are irrelevant because the audiophiles claim to hear differences on discs, which can be read perfectly, per se.
Their secret weapon probably is the catchphrase Clock Jitter.