Cce

vbimport

#1

i know this isn’t a transcoder but my problem is that so many ppl are saying that CCE is the best arround. This is what i have discoverd.

in the “default” CCE settings using the “natural picture” option with the slider slightly to the right for extra complexity i noticed the resulting video was a little blurred. I think because of this the encoder can do a better job than a transcoder. But when i disabled the blurring effects the bitrate wasnt enough to get a good quality out of it. So i am beginning to wonder if CCE is really better then other encoders. I compared it with tmpgenc and it also has a problem with the same bitrate. Unless i filter the noise out i cant get e good result out of CCE.

My question is the following: is there anybody arround here that can get the same sharpnes as the transcoders and without any blockyness using cce(with a bitrate similair to mine). I was a little disapointed about cce so now im going to try some of the newer version transcoders.

data:
bitrate: average 3900 min 0 max 9000
i have used different quantisizer matrices and DC-components(9&10bit)


#2

I get absolutely no blocking at all with CCE, even below 3000 bitrate. Have a read of the Tutorial on how I do it http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62671


#3

have u ever compared the original with the encoded one. The quality is ok, but the picture is a little blurred. place the original next to the encoded one and i think u’ll see.

another question… have u ever compared the “q level” of the original and the encoded one. with my test runs the encoded film comes out better, which i think is caused by the blurring.

when i turned the filters off the quality wass less impressive, since it needs a higer bitrate for the details


#4

i have made a comparison some time ago with a bitrate aroung 4000 (it was only a 5GB->4GB reduction and even there cce looked best. I disabled also all filtering.

you can try to download the pictures here:
ftp://zhnujm.dyndns.org/Image3.png
ftp://zhnujm.dyndns.org/Image4.png
top left is original
top right is dvd2one
bottom left is cce
bottom right is instantcopy

but they are 2MB big.

maybe you used a too low min bitrate ? i had some bad results with setting it to 0 in tmpegenc.


#5

zhnujm i looked ad your pics and i have to admit that cce is very good. I dont see any difference though with instant copy, some little details are shown better in th IC picture than in CCE. With the tests i performed i also got good quality, but not everywhere.

If the noise filter was turned off i sometimes got some artifacts.
I wonder if CCE can really produce better quality than IC using the same movie/audio streams etc.


#6

Originally posted by jandevries145
have u ever compared the original with the encoded one. …

What do you think mate? You recon I have been blindly going alone encoding with CCE and hoping the hell it comes out good with no comparisons ? Yerr… right !

Besides, a bit rate of 3900 is a bit low for me, most encodes are about 4500 to 6500 for me (depends on the movie length).

The movie length and original bitrate used will determine the final quality of any re-encode or transcode, not just the final bitrate.


#7

look at the horse in the first picture and you will see how blocky instantcopy gets even at such a low compression.
and the results of the transcoders will get worser and worser if you lower the bitrate more.
the results of DVD2One are just horible for such a low reduction.
imho the only transcoder that can nearly compete with cce at low reductions is instantcopy.

i have also some pictures from a bigger movie if you are interested.


#8

Does anyone know (‘know’ as opposed to ‘thinks’) once and for all whether InstantCopy transcodes (compresses) or actually re-encodes?
Given the time it takes, it would be entirely possible for one of the faster MPEG encoders (MainConcept seems to be the OEM favourite) to re-encode the original, and they may well have the MainConcept SDK in there.
The consensus of these forums seems to be that IC delivers the best results of all the ‘one-click’ options, even though you have to wait almost until hell freezes over before you see the results. I can’t realistically believe that this is merely down to better pre-scanning?

-Pete


#9

@ChickenMan u said “What do you think mate? You recon I have been blindly going alone encoding with CCE and hoping the hell it comes out good with no comparisons ? Yerr… right !”

this kind of comments really helps ppl !!!

u gave me a tutorial about how to use cce, but that didnt really helped me cause i already know how to use the program. The part about cce is about 9 lines. There ins’t anything about quantization or filtering. Since u described the use of cce in only 9 lines i wondered how deep your knowledge about cce goes. Also the tutorial goes for cce 2.5 only. The newer versions have many improvements (for example improved picture quality), which is reson enough for me not to use cce 2.5. Many ppl say that it is VERY important to use the correct settings. I dont know what they are and a description about the technical terms doesnt really help to get the optimal settings. So trial and error is the only way, unless someone on the internet already has done this and wants to share his knowledge.

i know u have tested all your films, but like i said. If u dont put the original next to the reencoded one it is IMPOSSIBLE to see the image is blurred. I didnt notice eather. I watched for artifacts etc… there werent any so i was happy with it. The bitrate depends on the length of the movie. Believe me, if i could use a higher one i would certanly do it, but that is not always a possibility.

I find it a bit strange that u say “I get absolutely no blocking at all with CCE, even below 3000 bitrate” and in ur next post u stated "Besides, a bit rate of 3900 is a bit low for me, most encodes are about 4500 to 6500 for me ". it might be better to clarify the subject insted of creating more confusion ;).

I know everything depends on the original movie, but it might help if someone could give some pointers for what will works on most movies with much/litle noise and a high/low bitrate.

(ChickenMan, dont take this critic to personal cause it isnt ment that way. I only want clearity about this subject which is in the interest of all of us)

@ zhnujm
thanks for your CONSTRUCTIVE comments. that is what this forum is all about :). It has helped me a lot already. Still I would also love to see other pics of other movies
please dont forget to tell what settings u use(d). i am very interested in :
-quantization matrix
-number of passes
-bitrate or the ammount of reduction in size
and could u also tell me what the lowest bitrate was u used and still achived an (for you) acceptable quality.

@Peter McCall
i hope someone can answer your question cause i wondering about the same thing yesterday :slight_smile:


#10

Originally posted by jandevries145
Many ppl say that it is VERY important to use the correct settings.

Then all I can suggest is you have a chat to “Many ppl” to find out what the magical settings are. I use CCE 2.50 exclusively now so sorry I cant help you any further.


#11

It is generally accepted that there is no noticable difference in picture quality between CCE 2.5 and 2.66+. The only improvements are the added filtering options, and a bigger window.
Also, there are no magical settings for CCE to produce ideal picture quality. Everyone has differing opinions about this, so yes you’re probably right that trial and error is your best bet. Try encoding small clips of video at the bitrate and settings you want to try and compare. As soon as you find the best one that your eyes can tell, go with it.

/MLS


#12

i was afraid i have to try everything myself :frowning:

i wonder what is so “magic” about the quantization matrix, filters, quantiziser characteristics etc… u just choose them and look at the results.

@ chickenman… i’ve read in a tutorial that the settings can influence the results alot. So this is why i posted on this forum. I was under the impression i already was talking to “many people”, but maybe not the right one’s. Ill send a mail to the author of the tutorial… if i can find it again.


#13

Have a read here what the “experts” at Doom9 have to say about CCE settings. It is for 2.50 but I’m sure you will be able sort it out.

http://www.doom9.org/mpg/dvd2svcd_advref.html#cce


#14

i have also some pics from a longer movie (7.1GB->4.2GB):

ftp://zhnujm.dyndns.org/Image1.png
ftp://zhnujm.dyndns.org/Image2.png
ftp://zhnujm.dyndns.org/Image5.png

the main movie had a bitrate around 2800.

i dont like tweaking everything, no time for that, i just deselect all filters and choose the standard matrix, or the very low bitrate matrix if the bitrate is under 2500. i select 3-4 more passes if the bitrate is low <3000, otherwiese 2 passes seem to be enough.

and i can be sure the result will be better than that from a transcoder.


#15

thx for your pics zhnujm. Ill use your settings and i think they will be fine for me :).

also chickenman thx for the link. I thought i had seen everything on doom9 but still this one is new for me :slight_smile: to bad eaven this page has only a single line about the matrices: “There are about 14 presets which you can choose from or you can customize. Advanced stuff.”

BTW the last images from zhnujm clearly show CCE is still the best arround. I think when the reduction is small (< 5gb) IC can do a decent job. above it CCE is clearly a better choice. All the others are clearly of inferior in quality…

this is what i concluded after looking at different test, if someone thinks otherwise please post images, and dont just say im wrong.


#16

well, i just want to say that instantcopy most times looks closer to cce in the second movie (7.1->4.2GB) than the pictures may show.
i just choosen some parts where the difference can clearly be seen.


#17

Here’s something I put together… perhaps everyone can jump in and tweak it.

Noob’s guiding Noobs : using dvd2svcd to create a dvd5 from a dvd9.


Get the latest version of DVD2SVCD @ Doom9.
Link to software section of Doom9 : http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/software.htm

P.S. During the installation of DVD2SVCD, a prompt will appear asking you for the version of Avisynth you wish to install… 2.08 works just fine.

Prior to inputting the below settings, download Cinema Craft Encoder 2.50 ONLY.
Link to CCE 2.50 : http://www.doom9.org/Soft21/Encoders/MPEG2/cspte250.exe

You’ll also need DVDLAB 1.1. http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/

P.S. Install ForceASPI.


*** CONFIGURING DVD2SVCD ***
Information represents a blending of approaches from mij (http://www.dvdrhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=114252), ChickenMan (http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62671), mrbass (http://www.mrbass.org/dvd2dvdr/) for the DVDLab part, and myself… and hopefully you too!

  1. Go to the “Misc.” tab and change DVD2SVCD level to the “Advanced” option.

1a) Set “Default output folder” to a dir where you have about 20gig H/D space free (make a dir so you know where all your outputted files will be) Then make sure in “Input file type” DVD is selected, and in “Output file type” MPEG-2 is selected, and “Don’t delete any files” is ticked

  1. Go to “Frameserver” tab and change “Resize to” option to DVD (720x480/576)

2a) Avisynth setup box should be “BicubicResize”

2b) Make sure “Add ResampleAudio” is checked.

  1. Go to the “Encoder” tab and set “Multipass VBR” to 3 to 4 passes. Most people agree that after 4 passes, you can’t tell a difference anymore. (You need at least 2 passes to correctly calculate the final DVD5 size.) The more passes you do, the longer it takes to produce the final product.

3a) Still in the “Encoder” tab: Click on the “Advanced settings [Dropdown to Edit]” option at the bottom right corner and select “Close all GOPs” and also “DVD Compliant.” Still in here, set “M” to 3 and N/M to “4” …

3b) Back to the “Encoder” Tab again. Set “image Qual. Priority” to a value of 30. (Read: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=54286&highlight=CCE+2.50)

3c) Set “Bias” to 20

3d) Set Timecode to “00:00:00:00”

  1. Go to “CD Image” tab and select “Don’t make Images”

  2. Go to “Audio” tab and select “Do not convert audio (use source audio)” (This will allow you to retain the AC3 track)

  3. Go to “DVD rip” tab and check “Activate DVD ripping” (“Use Internal routines” is recommended.)

  4. Go to “DVD2AVI” tab and select “Automatic” in the “NTSC Field Operation (Force film) box.

  5. Go to “Subtitles” tab and uncheck “Rip subtitles”

8a) Go to “bbMPEG” tab, and rewrite the filename to RunbbMPEG.exe to something like “NoRunbbMPEG.bat.” Now, go to the directory where RunbbMPEG.exe is on your hard drive, and create the “NoRunbbMPEG.bat” file with notepad. Inside that new .bat file, have it say something like “@Echo off” on one line, and on the line under that one write something like “Echo I don’t need this to run for me to have a DVD5.”

  1. Go to “Bitrate” tab

9a) Change “Max.” to 9000, “Min.” 300 and “Max. avg” to 6000

9b) Change all 6 “Use” boxes to a value of 1.

9c) Change all 6 “CD size” boxes to a value of 4400.

9d) Uncheck “Warn if the total bitrate is too high”

9e) Uncheck “Min. Avg”

  1. Go to the “Conversion” tab and click the CD icon (or alternately you can browse to the IFO file). This will automatically load up the largest IFO file (which is generally the movie on the disc). Look at how long DVD2SVCD says that the IFO you’ve just loaded is. If it’s only like 1 minute or, you’ve got the wrong one for sure – for those wanting movies!

The movie length will load up and also the aspect ratio… Now, even if you do not have a widescreen tv yet, if the DVD is anamorphic (16:9 / Enhanced for 16:9 TVs… whatever you want to call it) select the option “Anamorphic, no borders added” then hit the Go button and select preview - click next a few times and it will give you a preview of what you are encoding - check for any interlace problems

If all looks ok, hit encode and let it do the rest for you… If there are interlace problems, there are different deinterlace options there to chose from (select one and it will preview the option you chose in real time)

DVDLab
Main Movie Only with no Menu. Only ONE audio track and no subtitles.

(Video = Pulldown_Encoded_Video_NTSC.mpv & Audio = Encoded_audio_1.ac3 are it!)

Open DVDLab and click Import Files. Ctrl-A to select both files. (Drag them both to the bottom of the DVDLab screen… into that nice empty white box.)

After importing you’ll see them listed in the Assets window.

Drag and drop Video track onto Movie 1. Next drag Audio track onto Movie 1.
Select Menu 1 then hit Delete key to remove the menu.

Click + Draw Links and connect like so. (If you need something visual, then goto Mr. Bass’s site and look at how he has outlined using DVDLab. http://www.mrbass.org/dvd2dvdr/ ) It’s imperative you connect Title Button to Movie 1, otherwise your DVD will NOT Play in your standalone DVD player.

Open the file that contains chapter information. If you have been following my instructions, then it has already been created for you. The filename should be: “DVD Maestro Chapters File.chp” Make sure that the information contained in the chapter file exactly resembles the layout of the above image. Naturally, chapter numbers and chapter times will vary from movie to movie.

Double click on Movie 1 or click Movie 1 tab near bottom to get Movie 1 window into view.
Right click on Chapters and select Import Chapters… locate the particular text file containing the particular chapter information for your particular movie. Select “Import Chapters.”

Click Proceed after verifying movie length and chapters will be created.

Now your ready to compile and burn your DVD.

In whichever output directory you have selected, DVDLAB will create 2 folders. Audio_ts and Video_Ts. Start Nero & Compile a new DVD Video. Drag and drop the files, just as they are, from the Video_Ts folder that DVDLAB has created to the Video_Ts folder that nero will soon create on your DVD.


#18

How do you snap the same frame when you do the comparison?

Thanks.


#19

Jan, what have you found out so far about optimal settings for CCE, cuz I’m having the same probs here. Have you read this;

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=92495
I found the following line the most interesting;
[I]When the distortion of complicated part is more noticeable than that of flat part, smaller V/C value may improve image quality of complicated part. On the other hand, when the distortion of flat part is more noticeable, larger V/C value may bring the better result. Although you can also adjust the setting for a certain part of the footage one by one at Local bitrate setting in VBR bit allocation (see page 55), V/C parameter can change the bit allocation through the footage more effectively at a time.[/I]