BenQ DW1655 drives can't burn YUDEN000T02 media any more

vbimport

#1

I bought a BenQ DW1655 OEM with BCAB firmware. I burned several -R and +R media successfully at 4x, including 3 YUDEN000T02. The Nero quality scans looked fine on every disc, except on the 3rd YUDEN burn there was a small PIF mountain near the end. Every subsequent YUDEN disc I tried to burn with Nero has failed at some random point. During the burning I could hear the drive changing speed a lot. I even tried moving the drive to a different computer, used a different version of Nero, erased learned media with QSuite, etc. with no success. I returned the drive as defective after wasting many precious YUDEN discs. (Other types of media still worked OK.)

Another interesting thing I noticed is the burned surface on failed YUDEN media had very strange patterns in them instead of the usual even/smooth burned surface. It almost looked like smears in the burn.

I then got a different DW1655 (I/O Magic drive) which I crossflashed to BCDB firmware. Imagine my utter shock when the exact same scenario repeated itself on my YUDEN000T02 discs! The only difference is I got about 6 successful YUDEN burns at 4x. I can’t imagine 2 drives could be defective in the same way.

Does anyone know what this problem is that has bitten me twice?

I have the drive set to its defaults (WOPC on, SolidBurn on). Could WOPC explain this problem? I know the drive is supposed to learn and adjust its burn strategy, but I never thought it would go from near perfect burns to only bad burns. I haven’t burned enough other types of media to see if this happens on other media types. Right now it seems to be YUDEN000T02 specific.

Is burning YUDEN000T02 media at 4x not recommended on the DW1655? I’ll try burning at faster speeds, but it bothers me that media that once burned fine at 4x no longer can. I have less than a week to return this drive to the store if it’s defective.


#2

It takes Solidburn 5-6 discs to truly zero in on a set write strategy. During these burns, do not change any setting (speed, SB on, WOPC on/off), as doing this will taint the results. If the results are not satisfactoy for you after 10 discs, then alter [U]a[/U] setting.

Also, each subsequent disc burned narrows the strategy down a little farther.

Myself I get the best results with SB on/on and WOPC on @ 8x with T02’s. Mainly it depends on the batch of media you have.


#3

I looked at my “learned media” settings through QSuite and it only had YUDEN000T02 listed. Am I correct to assume that a media code only shows up after 5-6 burns or will an entry show up the very first time?

It finally dawned on me that the Solid Burn default settings were saying that SB would be used for unknown media but NOT for learned media. So I took this to mean I had burned enough YUDEN000T02 for it to consider them learned and stop using SB. I turned Solid Burn to always on (including learned media) and presto magico I was able to burn YUDEN media again at 4x.

So far the quality scan looks fine and the “smeariness” on the burned surface is gone. Can anyone explain what the smeariness represents? Is that the result of the laser power varying too much because the drive didn’t learn the media properly? It’ll be interesting to see if it does such a poor job learning on other media types or if it’s the fact the 1655 is optimized for 8x or 12x speed instead of 4x?

During my YUDEN media burns I did not change any settings, so I’m puzzled why both 1655s I had did such a bad job learning my YUDEN media. Can someone explain or point me to a thread that will clarify what this learning is trying to do and why it causes the drive to make occasional funny “sputtering” sounds? If the Solid Burn write strategy works fine, why does the drive’s firmware need to try to learn a new strategy to replace SB? There must be a reason.


#4

Your sputtering is WOPC (walking optimal power control) doing its job. It slows down writing every minute or so to check what was written and adjusts the laser power accordingly.

A media code shows up in the learned media after the first disc burned with Solid Burn. It takes a few disc to learn, and each disc burned helps fine tune the strategy that it will use the next time. Solid Burn basically checks the disc (pre-burn) on the outer section and inner section to check for variations.

You may find you have better results @ 8x. However, it is not the drive that decides what it favorite burn speed it for the media really, it’s the media quality. Most people recommend writing at rated speed for discs, unless it is just a really crappy batch. Exceptions are: 12x burn speed for MCC 004’s (Verbatim 16+R) and Verbatim 16x-R (can’t remember the media code).

You could try clearing your learned media and try @ 8x and see if things are better or worse as I know I had a slightly worse than normal batch that I had to burn @ 4x with SB off.


#5

Sapo, burn that media at 8 or 12x speed. 4x is far to slow and your drive might learn bad write strategy giving you problems in future.
Always start to burn at rated speed, only if you experience severe problems its time to slow down.

Can’t agree on that. Only 2-3 burns are needed for drive to “learn”.
Altering the speed can be a good idea, especially in cases as we run into now, like burning under the rated speed.
In my opinon, when you use quality media, the best is to leave the setting for known media at default (no SolidBurn).
Even disabling WOPC can inprove your quality.

[I]Edit.[/I] I see jhtalisman has (in some details) modified his statement, nevertheless my post stands as it.


#6

I began achieving “good” burns after 3, but after 5-6 discs I have had “great” scans, with only an occasional hiccup. Just my experience.


#7

Thanks for the replies. To summarize, I think people are saying the reason my DW1655 fails burning YUDEN000T02 media at 4x after a handful of burns is because it turned off Solid Burn after it fully learned this media, and because my media may not be a good batch and/or I shouldn’t burn below the rated (8x) speed this caused failures on every subsequent YUDEN burn (until I turned SB always on)?

While I realize that my 8x media is more likely optimized for 8x, if my batch of media is bad then why do I get great burns (typically a 97 score with only a few PIF spikes between 2 and 5) at 4x when Solid Burn is on? I thought by definition you can’t get very good burns on poor quality media even with SB on. I’ve tried 8x burns on this same media batch in the past on other drives and the 4x vs. 8x quality scans are about the same. If SB turned on can produce beautiful quality scans on any type of media, including a bad batch, then is there really such a thing as bad media any more?

My reason for burning at 4x is this: there are lots of spots and scratches near the edge (thanks to the Fuji spindles these came on). I found when there is a bad spot, the PIF mountain looks worse at 8x burn than at 4x, so I was hoping 4x burning would have less of a problem with the spots near the edge.

So, I should try clearing the EEPROM in QSuite to erase my 4x learned media and burn all my 8x media at 8x. Then once it re-learns the YUDEN media at 8x, I could let it turn off Solid Burn and theoretically it should do a better burn job than Solid Burn and it won’t ruin every YUDEN disc like it did at 4x with Solid Burn off? If this is correct, I think the drive’s behavior is strange. You’d think the drive would be able to detect when a learned strategy is doing a bad job and revert to Solid Burn on rather than trashing the media. This undocumented “feature” caused me to return my first 1655 as defective when it wasn’t. I guess the reason nobody else encountered it is I must be the only person who still burns mostly at 4x.

It sounds like the drive always keeps learning, so if you burn at 8x for a long time and switch to 4x briefly, the 8x learned results could be tainted. I don’t know if the drive uses a weighted average for its media learning. It sounds to me like the best strategy is to leave SB always on. If it only adds 1 minute to each disc, I can live with that.

I found a few other threads discussing SB and WOPC, but there doesn’t seem to be a FAQ discussing them. I’ll read those threads to see if I can understand all of this.


#8

Ya know I had a couple coasters in my last spindle of TYs - it surprised me as I haven’t had any issues with them at all in the past. I was actually suspecting my drive was getting worn, but I’ve opened a new spindle and so far no coasters. They are not burning as well as they used to though. I used to see PIF levels of 6 or less and more frequently of 4 or less with a quantity of PIF of around 100. Now I’m seeing PIF levels of 8 or less, but most are showing a couple at 8, and a quantity in the upper 200 to 300 range.

Not bad burns, just not what they used to be just a couple spindles back.

I wonder if TY quality isn’t slipping a little?

BTW, those smears you saw . . . I saw them on my coasters too and I’m using a 1620. I actually wondered if I hadn’t inadvertantly gotten a finger print on them as one of them looked kinda like a dark, smeared finger print (and my kids are constantly digging through the discs as for some reason you can’t just take one off the top!).

Bob


#9

I have had ‘bad’ TY media (like Svenson, still very good and better than most others) a couple months ago, but my last few spindles (25 pcs and 100 pcs of TYG02 and 100 pcs of T02) are back to the best I ever had. So maybe Taiyo has had a bad patch, but has corrected this, while still some of those media are in the pipeline. At least, that is what I hope. I ordered from SVP and cdrwinkel (Europe).


#10

I just reecently had a spindle of Sonys rebranded Yuden000-T02-000 and they had alot of dye spotting, I brought the spindle back and recieved another that is good.


#11

I burn exclusively T02 on my 1655 and have no problems. i keep my settings at SB on/on, WOPC on and burn at 8x.


#12

Hi :slight_smile:
I find this thread interesting (plus a PM found me). As I understand it manufacturers are releasing new models either capable of going faster or at the same high speeds with improved quality. To further this end Philips/BenQ have SolidBurn/OverSpeed/WOPC II. (Lite-On have entered with SmartBurn/HyperTuning/OverSpeed).
In relation to BenQ SB etc. It is the aim of SolidBurn to get the best (quality wise) out of the media inserted into the drive. Often this has meant with poor quality or a rogue disc with better media, appallingly slow speeds. Even quality scores that leave something to be desired. In the pursuit of the ideal both Philips/BenQ actually recommend that SB be enabled for known media. Why? It’s their belief that media varies, something that I think we all would agree on. The amount & why/how this variation occurs is open for debate. Back to topic. With SB enabled small tests of varying strategies are written in the leadin & leadout(this leadout isn’t right as pinto2 found out, it is in fact just outside that area. Rightly or wrongly it was decided to stick to the possibly ‘easier’ leadout than go into details). These tests are read & the strat with the lowest jitter is selected.(Plextor user will be familiar with this, but I’m trying to aviod getting too technical at this stage). So each disc is treated differently in the aim to get excellent end results(N.B. SB when enabled will never turn itself off because ‘it has learned the media’ the variation in the strat may become less or even be the same on ocassion, but never off). Using this type of approach implies that media speed rating is likely to be seen as the reference. Hence 8x will be attempted if, not written to at 8x. (higher speeds may be achieved with OverSpeed enabled). To select a speed slower than that of the original speed rating is contradictory to process (this is going to apply whether SB enabled or not. That’s why you have different strats. Otherwise what’s the point). {That’s not to say never drop speed, it’s just not the best point at which to start}.
With 8x media having been around for quite a while, the f/w has matured to the point that most DVDRWs’ will give satisfactory results at the very least (with the likes of TY,MCC etc). So much so that a lot of users are getting excellent results @12x(or even greater). You’ll note that with 16x media as it’s not been around nearly as long. The write speed is often dropped to 12x to get a similar scan of equal quality. In the past there was a school of thought that believed ‘slower is better’. Personally I’m not sure that was ever true, otherwise we’d all still be writing @1x for reference material. Certainly nowadays with a new drive & half decent media at least. The rated speed is probably a good place to start.
While this is not technically correct it might help to compare things to a car & driving. The aim being to get from ‘a’ to ‘b’ smoothly & economically.
The drive is the ‘car’ SB the ‘gas pedal (or accelerator)’ WOPC ‘the gears’ OS ‘turbo’ media ‘fuel’ quality ‘fuel economy’.
SB selects the best strat(speed for the conditions) for the media(fuel). WOPC fine tunes to allow for changes along the surface (best gear selected for variations in road conditions). A combination of SB/WOPC will ideally give good quality recordings (combination of suitable speed/correct gear selection =good fuel economy) For those times when speed is desired over quality OS (turbo). This is not meant as a factual anology, just a means to bring down to ‘street level’. :bigsmile: I hope this will help some without irritating others.

@ Sapo, what in affect your doing is ‘driving’ your car in first gear all the time. Then wondering why your not getting very good fuel economy. I suggest as others have. Enable SB & leave WOPC alone. Try writing @ the rated speed for your media.


#13

I agree. As an ‘old hand’ who also thinks slower is not always better, I started burning at rated speeds with my new 1655, then found the OS switch and now I burn my 8x media @12x, with great results.
I only use TY 8x media, Verbatim DL and -RW and Ricoh +RW (the only 8x +RW available at the time).

Of course, every batch of media is different and so is every burner, but you can eliminate a lot of factors by using the best media at rated speed or slightly higher. A good system setup and no resource or I/O hogging applications also help; I always pauze any downloads while burning.

BTW My last Verbatim MCC004 burned best in my NEC 3500 @16x, better than underspeeding in any of my drives. Still, I prefer 8x TY.


#14

Without having read through all of this, try simply turning OFF SB and burn at 8x. Unless it’s a bad batch, you should get excellent burns without SB with T02 at 8x. Despite what you might think, SB does not always help matters. With media I’ve tested SB with, it has either had roughly no effect or a negative effect on the burn quality vs. stock write strategies. I’m not saying SB doesn’t have it’s uses with some media, but I have tested about 10 different media codes and it has served no benefit with any of the media [B]I[/B] tested it with, including multiple types of poor media, such as fake MCC. If it’s not broken, don’t try to fix it - if the stock write strategy/SB off provides excellent results, stick to it. On the other hand, newer Liteons have a similar feature to SB called Hypertuning, I’ve found that it has improved my burns over stock FW quite a bit, so I use it often.


#15

Hi :slight_smile:
scoobiedoobie, I’ve tried finding some scans of your to see this ‘SB screwing’ your results to no avail. Could you give me some references as I’d like to compare your results with mine. More importantly I’d like to see if I can duplicate this to see why this would happen.
Interestingly, I appreciate the work done by wind & others which enabled me to use HT & OS etc on my Lite-On 16H5S. However the scans while an improvement haven’t been a patch on the scans I get with BenQ (whether 1640/1650/1655).


#16

With my DW1650, after a couple of burns T02 is marginally better with SB on.

All my other media (T03, MCC004, TYG02 & TYG03) has tended to follow this trend exept one spindle of Verbatim MCC 03RG20.

With SB off the discs play fine and give scans of at least 95%, however, with SB on the discs cannot be played either in standalone players or any of my PC drives. :confused:


#17

I’m not sure if I’ve posted any comparison scans in any threads here, although I’ve shared quite a few comparison scans with Franksoy and he did some comparisons as well, via PM and offsite. I’ve made some comments on this subject in other threads when I think turning off SB is worth consideration (some people never turn it off). ‘On paper’, I would have expected SB to be of some benefit with the media I tested, but the scans say otherwise. I know some people swear by SB and if their scans really show an improvement vs. SB off, that’s great. At stock speeds, SB has not benefited the media I’ve tested, and this even includes unsupported media codes such as 2.4x and 4x media.

I have a 160P6s and I suspect it burns very similar to your drive, and I have not been all that impressed with it either vs. my 1640. For example, T02 burns on it have jitter averages close to 11%, pathetic for such good media. HT improved error levels and jitter slightly, but they still pale in comparison to the burns I get on other drives. Some media burns with similar or even lower error levels than my 1640, but the jitter levels are always worse, sometimes by only about 1%, sometimes 3%+.

I don’t want to turn this thread into a SB thread, I would just suggest that Sapo turn off SB and burn at 8x and make some comparisons, he might find that SB off is a better choice for these discs.


#18

scoobiedoobie/zebade; Are you guys debating over the affectivity of Solid Burn (SB) or OverSpeed, as far as OverSpeed concern this function is the same as, modding the f/w for different write strategy which obviously and no doubt has some effect and good benefit, as for Solid Burn no one has come up with solid evidence to show what effect if any or what benefit it has on burning process.


#19

Hi :slight_smile:
@scoobiedoobie, thanks just curious.
@TCAS, merits of SB. For me SB enabled for all media all the time. I find it gives lower PIE/PIF/Jitter equalling consistantly high quality. My PIF & Jitter figures are amongst the lowest I’ve ever seen. I want not only quality but consistancy too.


#20

If it’s enabled for all media all the time, have you done fair comparisons with SB turned OFF to confirm that it really improves quality? Or is this just your assumption because you get good burns and it ‘makes sense’ that SB will improve your burns? I get consistantly great results out of my 1640, and at this point I rarely use SB after the comparisons I’d done.