BD-R MID codes and manufacturers

vbimport

#1

Hi everybody,

This forum has been great help to me by just reading the existing post about BD-R.

I recently bough my very first BD-R capable burner
PIONEER BDR-209DBK and now dabbling in the next generation of optical media.

The question that has been in mind is about MID codes and different manufacturers/brands. Do they bring to the table something of their own?

Especially MID code CMCMAG BA5 seems to be sold under many brands and some of them have their own technology on manufacturing optical disc. TDK and Verbatim come to my mind, they both have different surface material technology and I am curious if they would be utilized on these 3rd party supplier made discs or are CMCMAG BA5 discs basically all the same no matter on the brands that they are sold under?

BR
Meineko


#2

The short answer is: to us, the consumer, all discs of one MID are the same, except for price/quality differences, and different surfaces & coatings. We KNOW better, but they are supposed to be the same & perform equally well.

As you note, both Verbatim and TDK know how to manufacture discs, and can provide their own materials. But a CMCMAG BA5 purchased under the Verbatim brand is supposed to be the same as a CMCMAG BA5 purchased under the TDK brand, maybe with only quality or price differences & coating/exterior surface differences. Maybe TDK could provide a special coating surface, or maybe Verbatim wants a special printing surface, but that is very specific & does not change the base disc.

It is possible for CMC to use Verbatim materials or TDK materials while manufacturing its own MID, as it did with its DVD media; CMC’s own 16x DVD+R and -R media could use dye from Verbatim/MKM, TDK, Fujifilm, and others, which resulted in performance differences with different batches of the same MID. But CMC determines which materials to use in each batch of its own media. To the end user, those subtle changes mean the media should perform the same no matter what. Again, we know that’s not true, but that’s what is expected.

Now, when we’re talking about CMC manufacturing discs for TDK or Verbatim specifically to make a TDK or Verbatim MID, things change. In that case, the brands have more control, because it’s their disc model. But that isn’t what you’re asking. :bigsmile:


#3

Thank you for the reply. Another thing related to MIDs that I have been wondering.

Do the specific MID get better during the years. Ritek BR2 and BR3 seem to have some horror stories attached to them (data loss in a couple of years).

After time passes you would think that a sensible manufacturer would improve their process and make a more reliable product.
But is this the case and did certain MID codes improve during the CD/DVD/BD-age?


#4

Anecdotally, yes, media can get better.

For example, RITEK G05 (8x DVD-R) was known to quickly degrade. However, Ritek still produces it (or produced it for a long time), and there have not been as many complaints of degradation. It is possible that they refined the manufacturing process without tampering with the overall design.

[It is also possible that the design of G05 requires a very specific write strategy, else the recording layer is left unstable… and maybe Ritek instructed drive manufacturers on how to best write to G05 such that rapid degradation didn’t occur. But I doubt this is the case, as G05 always seemed to perform very well when used immediately after burning.]

There are other cases where the manufacturing process was refined over time without a need for a different identifier. There are also cases where switching manufacturers improved things. An example is genuine Ricoh DVD+R DL, which is best produced by FTI & worst produced by MBI & Ritek (initial write quality was always questionable until FTI began producing it). Another example is TDK’s DVD-R – when produced in Japan by TDK it was fairly long lasting, while discs produced by TDK in Luxembourg sometimes degraded more quickly; then, when CMC began production, initial disc quality fell by a bit, but when FTI began production of the same discs, the quality instantly improved. Verbatim was the same: Prodisc and CMC had been known for producing good discs, then Moser Baer began production and took a long time to reach a good quality level. FTI began producing MKM discs and again did so with excellent quality from the start (similar to what MKM itself could manufacture).

Given the way RITEK G05 improved (with Ritek being the sole manufacturer), we can hope the quality of RITEK BR2 and RITEK BR3 improves over time.


#5

Great info, thank you. I received already batches of CMCMAG BA5, BR3, MBI and VERBATIMu.
I will try to keep an open mind on trying different MIDs, but heeding good information on this forum and keeping backups on multiple different types or storage mediums.

I just get easily curious when seeing a lot of negativity on some products and thus wanting to try them out by myself.

Edit:
Philips R04 made by Moser Baer seemed to have also difficulties in the beginning when they acquired Philips BD-R-technology. If I have understood correctly reading from this forum they were good quality disc when manufactured in Europe? But people seemed to have lost interest in them after bad experiences in the early period after Moser Baer transition. I am just wondering if they would be now back to the original quality? They are not exactly sold cheaply nowadays.


#6

I had PHILIPR04 labeled as Mediarange BD-R25 4x lately and the quality was still bad. :Z


#7

Thanks for the latest info. Maybe I’ll be checking some other MIDs that have some potential.


#8

[QUOTE=katraine;2774370]I had PHILIPR04 labeled as Mediarange BD-R25 4x lately and the quality was still bad. :Z[/QUOTE]

I had PHILIPR04 as well labelled as Optical Quantum BD-R 25GB 4x and the quality was also not that good. It didn’t really agree that well with my Pioneer BD-R 209DBK burner.

I’m going to stick with Verbatim, TDK or Panasonic BD-R in the future.


#9

Thanks also for the latest info. Speaking of TDK MID codes 6X variant seem to be sold for quite reasonable price online, maybe have to try those waters as well. Any reason why the 4X variant would be considerably more expensive than the 6X, both were Falcon Pro-series products.


#10

[QUOTE=Albert;2774039]The short answer is: to us, the consumer, all discs of one MID are the same, except for price/quality differences, and different surfaces & coatings. We KNOW better, but they are supposed to be the same & perform equally well.

As you note, both Verbatim and TDK know how to manufacture discs, and can provide their own materials. But a CMCMAG BA5 purchased under the Verbatim brand is supposed to be the same as a CMCMAG BA5 purchased under the TDK brand, maybe with only quality or price differences & coating/exterior surface differences. Maybe TDK could provide a special coating surface, or maybe Verbatim wants a special printing surface, but that is very specific & does not change the base disc.

It is possible for CMC to use Verbatim materials or TDK materials while manufacturing its own MID, as it did with its DVD media; CMC’s own 16x DVD+R and -R media could use dye from Verbatim/MKM, TDK, Fujifilm, and others, which resulted in performance differences with different batches of the same MID. But CMC determines which materials to use in each batch of its own media. To the end user, those subtle changes mean the media should perform the same no matter what. Again, we know that’s not true, but that’s what is expected.

Now, when we’re talking about CMC manufacturing discs for TDK or Verbatim specifically to make a TDK or Verbatim MID, things change. In that case, the brands have more control, because it’s their disc model. But that isn’t what you’re asking. :bigsmile:[/QUOTE]

HI there Albert.
Everyone is writing Verbatim discs are Okay. I just tried DL 50GB discs and they are with MID: VERBAT-IMf-000. So I guess they are from Verbatim. But already burnt two coasters when using UDF only mode. Imgburn completes without error. But the files at the layerbreak got corrupt. So I dunno what could be wrong.


#11

What write speed?

Can you post your ImgBurn log? I want to see what settings you have selected.


#12

Coaster 1;

I 23:22:26 ImgBurn Version 2.5.8.0 started!
I 23:22:26 Microsoft Windows 8 Core x64 Edition (6.2, Build 9200)
I 23:22:26 Total Physical Memory: 4,077,484 KiB - Available: 2,785,612 KiB
I 23:22:26 Initialising SPTI…
I 23:22:26 Searching for SCSI / ATAPI devices…
I 23:22:29 -> Drive 1 - Info: TSSTcorp BDDVDW SE-506CB TS02 (E:) (USB 2.0)
I 23:22:29 Found 1 BD-RE XL!
I 23:28:38 Operation Started!
I 23:28:38 Building Image Tree…
I 23:35:20 Corrected file system selection for Blu-ray Video disc.
I 23:35:20 Corrected UDF revision selection for Blu-ray Video disc.
I 23:35:20 Calculating Totals…
I 23:35:20 Preparing Image…
I 23:35:21 Contents: 1,003 Files, 21 Folders
I 23:35:21 Content Type: BD Video
I 23:35:21 Data Type: MODE1/2048
I 23:35:21 File System(s): UDF (2.50)
I 23:35:21 Volume Label: [Not Configured]
I 23:35:21 Size: 45,920,698,985 bytes
I 23:35:21 Sectors: 22,422,875
I 23:35:21 Image Size: 45,927,235,584 bytes
I 23:35:21 Image Sectors: 22,425,408
I 23:35:21 Operation Successfully Completed! - Duration: 00:06:43
I 23:46:54 Operation Started!
I 23:46:55 Building Image Tree…
I 23:46:55 Calculating Totals…
I 23:46:55 Preparing Image…
I 23:46:55 Contents: 1,004 Files, 21 Folders
I 23:46:55 Content Type: BD Video
I 23:46:56 Data Type: MODE1/2048
I 23:46:56 File System(s): UDF (2.50)
I 23:46:56 Volume Label: Léon: The Professional (Theatrical + Extended, Remastered)
I 23:46:56 Size: 45,920,699,905 bytes
I 23:46:56 Sectors: 22,422,876
I 23:46:56 Image Size: 45,927,235,584 bytes
I 23:46:56 Image Sectors: 22,425,408
I 23:46:56 Operation Successfully Completed! - Duration: 00:00:01
I 23:47:22 Operation Started!
I 23:47:22 Building Image Tree…
I 23:47:22 Calculating Totals…
I 23:47:22 Preparing Image…
I 23:47:23 Contents: 1,004 Files, 21 Folders
I 23:47:23 Content Type: BD Video
I 23:47:23 Data Type: MODE1/2048
I 23:47:23 File System(s): UDF (2.50)
I 23:47:23 Volume Label: Léon: The Professional (Theatrical + Extended)
I 23:47:23 Size: 45,920,699,905 bytes
I 23:47:23 Sectors: 22,422,876
I 23:47:23 Image Size: 45,927,235,584 bytes
I 23:47:23 Image Sectors: 22,425,408
I 23:47:31 Operation Successfully Completed! - Duration: 00:00:09
I 23:47:31 Operation Started!
I 23:47:31 Source File: -==//[BUILD IMAGE]/==-
I 23:47:31 Source File Sectors: 22,425,408 (MODE1/2048)
I 23:47:31 Source File Size: 45,927,235,584 bytes
I 23:47:31 Source File Volume Identifier: Léon: The Professional (Theatrical + Extended)
I 23:47:31 Source File Volume Set Identifier: 48ACBDEB01562ADC
I 23:47:31 Source File Application Identifier: ImgBurn v2.5.8.0
I 23:47:31 Source File Implementation Identifier: ImgBurn
I 23:47:31 Source File File System(s): UDF (2.50)
I 23:47:32 Destination Device: [0:0:0] TSSTcorp BDDVDW SE-506CB TS02 (E:) (USB)
I 23:47:32 Destination Media Type: BD-R (Disc ID: VERBAT-IMf-000)
I 23:47:32 Destination Media Supported Write Speeds: 2x, 4x, 6x
I 23:47:32 Destination Media Sectors: 24,438,784
I 23:47:32 Write Mode: BD
I 23:47:32 Write Type: DAO
I 23:47:32 Write Speed: MAX
I 23:47:32 Hardware Defect Management Active: No
I 23:47:32 BD-R Verify Not Required: Yes
I 23:47:32 Link Size: Auto
I 23:47:32 Lock Volume: Yes
I 23:47:32 Test Mode: No
I 23:47:32 OPC: No
I 23:47:32 BURN-Proof: Enabled
I 23:47:32 Write Speed Successfully Set! - Effective: 26,976 KB/s (6x)
I 23:48:38 Filling Buffer… (80 MiB)
I 23:48:40 Writing LeadIn…
I 23:49:00 Writing Session 1 of 1… (1 Track, LBA: 0 - 22425407)
I 23:49:00 Writing Track 1 of 1… (MODE1/2048, LBA: 0 - 22425407)
I 23:49:00 Writing Layer 0… (LBA: 0 - 12219391)
I 00:12:21 Writing Layer 1… (LBA: 12219392 - 22425407)
I 00:31:09 Synchronising Cache…
I 00:31:14 Closing Track…
I 00:31:15 Finalising Disc…
I 00:32:31 Exporting Graph Data…
I 00:32:31 Graph Data File: C:\Users\Shockblast\AppData\Roaming\ImgBurn\Graph Data Files\TSSTcorp_BDDVDW_SE-506CB_TS02_THURSDAY-12-MAY-2016_11-47_PM_VERBAT-IMf-000_MAX.ibg
I 00:32:31 Export Successfully Completed!
I 00:32:31 Operation Successfully Completed! - Duration: 00:44:59
I 00:32:31 Average Write Rate: 17,741 KiB/s (4.0x) - Maximum Write Rate: 27,076 KiB/s (6.2x)
I 00:32:31 Cycling Tray before Verify…
W 00:32:44 Waiting for device to become ready…
I 00:32:53 Abort Request Acknowledged
E 00:32:53 Device Not Ready - Reason: Medium Not Present - Tray Open
E 00:32:53 Operation Aborted!

Coaster 2;

I 01:25:57 Operation Started!
I 01:25:57 Building Image Tree…
I 01:25:57 Calculating Totals…
I 01:25:57 Preparing Image…
I 01:25:57 Contents: 522 Files, 25 Folders
I 01:25:57 Content Type: BD Video
I 01:25:57 Data Type: MODE1/2048
I 01:25:57 File System(s): UDF (2.50)
I 01:25:57 Volume Label: Oblivion (Tom Cruise, CEE)
I 01:25:58 Size: 48,905,020,081 bytes
I 01:25:58 Sectors: 23,879,750
I 01:25:58 Image Size: 48,908,992,512 bytes
I 01:25:58 Image Sectors: 23,881,344
I 01:26:24 Operation Successfully Completed! - Duration: 00:00:27
I 01:26:24 Operation Started!
I 01:26:24 Source File: -==//[BUILD IMAGE]/==-
I 01:26:24 Source File Sectors: 23,881,344 (MODE1/2048)
I 01:26:25 Source File Size: 48,908,992,512 bytes
I 01:26:25 Source File Volume Identifier: Oblivion (Tom Cruise, CEE)
I 01:26:25 Source File Volume Set Identifier: 48AD0B3C016C63E6
I 01:26:25 Source File Application Identifier: ImgBurn v2.5.8.0
I 01:26:25 Source File Implementation Identifier: ImgBurn
I 01:26:25 Source File File System(s): UDF (2.50)
I 01:26:25 Destination Device: [0:0:0] TSSTcorp BDDVDW SE-506CB TS02 (E:) (USB)
I 01:26:25 Destination Media Type: BD-R (Disc ID: VERBAT-IMf-000)
I 01:26:25 Destination Media Supported Write Speeds: 2x, 4x, 6x
I 01:26:25 Destination Media Sectors: 24,438,784
I 01:26:25 Write Mode: BD
I 01:26:25 Write Type: DAO
I 01:26:25 Write Speed: MAX
I 01:26:25 Hardware Defect Management Active: No
I 01:26:25 BD-R Verify Not Required: Yes
I 01:26:25 Link Size: Auto
I 01:26:25 Lock Volume: Yes
I 01:26:25 Test Mode: No
I 01:26:25 OPC: No
I 01:26:25 BURN-Proof: Enabled
I 01:26:25 Write Speed Successfully Set! - Effective: 26,976 KB/s (6x)
I 01:27:30 Filling Buffer… (80 MiB)
I 01:27:32 Writing LeadIn…
I 01:27:47 Writing Session 1 of 1… (1 Track, LBA: 0 - 23881343)
I 01:27:47 Writing Track 1 of 1… (MODE1/2048, LBA: 0 - 23881343)
I 01:27:48 Writing Layer 0… (LBA: 0 - 12219391)
I 01:51:13 Writing Layer 1… (LBA: 12219392 - 23881343)

The second log got cut off for some reason but it finished the same.

Corresponding IBG files;

I’m burning these discs okay now using ISO+Joliet+UDF instead of just UDF. And speed is now set to 4x. Though 2 discs still have trouble copying files that are situated around the layer break. Copying these files off these discs around the layerbreak, slows total disc transfer down to 10mb/s. Otherwise it’s 24mb/s. But they do copy. And the md5 checksums I saved, report the files are still ok. see picture;


#13

The file systems you include on the disc have nothing to do with the problem you’re having.


#14

Any thoughts on the transfer speed-dip, is this normal? All my DL discs have this. Except for my 25GiB discs. This slowdown lasts for about a minute.

Also readspeed seems to go up, then after 25GiB it gradually goes down. Does this mean Blurays are burnt inside to outer, then outside of disc to inner on second layer?


#15

To the second question: yes, for dual-layer discs, it is burnt inner to outer, then outer to inner. (3 layers: third layer again goes inner to outer; 4 layers: fourth layer again goes from outer to inner).


To the first question: You can scan your discs to see if there was a significant amount of trouble burning the disc approaching the layer break. OptiDriveControl (full disclosure: 30 day trial) or DVDInfoPro (again, disclosure: 14 day trial) should allow you to scan your discs – something akin to what you see in http://club.myce.com/f179/mitsubishi-kagaku-media-verbatim-bd-r-dl-321634/


You can blindly drop the write speed to 2x & try again, which may help the drive handle the layer break.

You may set ImgBurn to explicitly request the drive performs OPC before the burn. If the drive doesn’t automatically do it, this would ask the drive to check the media and figure out the best way to write to it. Some drives ignore this option and will burn the same way every single time. Enabling the option is harmless, though some drives will throw an error and refuse to write; in that case, you just toggle it back off. Reference: http://forum.imgburn.com/index.php?/topic/6232-the-imgburn-settings/?p=65055 – on the left side, ENABLE the option “Perform OPC before write”.


You may also attempt to DISable the option “BD-R Verify Not Required” and DISable “Prefer Format Without Spare Areas”. Combined, this will have the drive attempt to verify the burn as it progresses (doesn’t replace a normal verification) and rewrite problem areas to achieve higher quality. When enabled and functioning, this drops the effective write speed & slightly reduces the available write capacity. (More space is needed to rewrite problem areas).

For as many times as I’ve accidentally made LIGHTNING UK! explain this, I can never recall if there’s another setting/option that must be tweaked for this to work, or if this is even guaranteed to work on write-once media. However, the drive may ignore these settings & write at full speed (without in-burn verification) anyway, with no harm done.


#16

Thank you for that extended reply. There’s new things for me to consider. Will definitely give ODC scan a try. Will google OPC.