Audio CD quality changes with speed?

vbimport

#1

Hi there,

Is it possible for CDRs of audio to sound worse if they are recorded at higher speeds?

We have big CD duplication equipment here at work, and we were given a master CDR (Taiyo Yuden) to make 350 copies of. The copies were done nice and quickly at 16x speed (the discs should be well capable of that)... We use this setting normally.

However the person we did it for reckons there is a noticable difference in sound quality between the master and the copies and would like us to do the next batch at 1x or 2x !!

Firstly is this possible? I guess the burning laser isn't going to get as hot so therefore it'll have a knock-on effect with players maybe not reading the discs "so well"? Or is he just hearing things? Is it really necessary to waste time burning them all at 1x or 2x or do you reckon we could get away with 4x, possibly even 8x?

thanks for your help from a newbie to this forum! :wink:

:-Joe


#2

Using quality media (TY) you should have no issues with burning at high speed depending on drive(s). What software are you using ? Although you will hear arguments about speed vs. sound quality I have never had any problems. I use Feurio! for audio, TY’S and Liteon drives.


#3

I think I’ve found glitches when I’ve played back CDs like these on older CD players, maybe they’re not really up to playin CDRs on them.

I just wanted to know really so I had a decent argument for burning CDs at that speed as it saves time. I don’t think it’s worth arguing with this person in particular but I wanted to make sure I wasn’t screwing things up by copying audio at such high speeds.

I’m using full-on Verity Systems duplication machines to do the copying, they have 8 DVD-R/RW burners in them and a funky robot arm… Crap software means the robot arm keeps getting stuck between drawers but that’s a different story :wink:

cheers,

:-Joe


#4

think I’ve found glitches when I’ve played back CDs like these on older CD players, maybe they’re not really up to playin CDRs on them.

the above is the only reason to burn at lower speeds. Doesn’t mean the quality of the burned cd is bad…it is the old player who have a hard time to handle cd-r


#5

so… You’re saying that this bloke who said the copies sounded “a bit thinner than the original” is a typical audiophile geek talking out of his rectum? :wink:

cos that’s what I dare to think…


#6

Originally posted by jowie
[B]so… You’re saying that this bloke who said the copies sounded “a bit thinner than the original” is a typical audiophile geek talking out of his rectum? :wink:

cos that’s what I dare to think… [/B]

Exactly;)
If anything you will be limited in burning speed with the hardware you are using. Also you would have playability issues seen as C-1/C-2 errors, not a drop in overall sound quality. I suggest testing with Nero cdspeed both the original and the burned disks and look for errors in both disks. (crap in = crap out)


#7

Audio is analogue data not digital.
The faster you burn the more you loose of the upper audio ranges.
Just use your brains, audio cds are only ever played back at 1x, ergo they should be read at 1x and then burnt at 1x if you want any chance of the copies having same quality as originals.
Years ago when I first bought a burner I bought the latest, best, TEAC SCSI burner.
I still use that burner exclusively for copying my audio cds because CDRWin allows me to read and write at 1x with it.
There used to be a website that showed clearly, using oscilloscope pictures, the loss when audio was read/burnt at speeds greater than 1x, unfortunately I haven’t been able to find it.
Unless you do as suggested the customer will continue to be dissatisfied.


#8

Audio is analogue data not digital.

when you rip it digital and you burn it…it never will be analogue


#9

Good heavens above!
One thing I always say,
To a neanderthal’s ears any noise must sound like music.


#10

right

a cd is digital…ripping the cd to hdd with eac/feurio keeps it digital, then you burn from hdd to cd again…still digital


#11

Data cds are digital, therefore a simple copy/paste is all that is required to copy from cd to hdd.
If an audio cd was also digital then the same would apply.
However it doesn’t, you need to ‘rip’ using ‘eac/feurio’, a strange neccessity if audio cds were digital.
This is an interesting piece of info from - http://pages.cthome.net/homepage/eac/faq.htm

“DAE stands for Digital Audio Extraction. It is the process in which your CD-Rom drive reads the raw audio data off the source disc. Because there is less error correction on audio CDs compared to ordinary data CDs, the process of extracting can often invite flaws such as pops, clicks, snaps and crackles into the recording.”

NOTE: ‘raw audio data’, this means analogue and not digital.


#12

DAE stands for Digital Audio Extraction

it says DIGITAL


#13

lol, good one damiandimitri. i was about to point that out myself.

NOTE: ‘raw audio data’, this means analogue and not digital.

i’d like to see how “raw audio data” means analog.


#14

You gentlemen seem to be reasonably intelligent people, of course I could be wrong.
Kindly list each and every way that you have personally been able to copy from an audio cd to hardrive WITHOUT using an audio ripper program.
I assume that you guys do know what is meant by copying?


#15

you can assume that yes…lol

read this please

http://www.teamcombooks.com/mp3handbook/15.htm


#16

Originally posted by Black Diamond
You gentlemen seem to be reasonably intelligent people, of course I could be wrong.
Kindly list each and every way that you have personally been able to copy from an audio cd to hardrive WITHOUT using an audio ripper program.
I assume that you guys do know what is meant by copying?

u seem to involve urself in threads where u’re proven wrong.


#17

Originally posted by Black Diamond
Audio is analogue data not digital.
The faster you burn the more you loose of the upper audio ranges.
Just use your brains, audio cds are only ever played back at 1x, ergo they should be read at 1x and then burnt at 1x if you want any chance of the copies having same quality as originals.
Years ago when I first bought a burner I bought the latest, best, TEAC SCSI burner.
I still use that burner exclusively for copying my audio cds because CDRWin allows me to read and write at 1x with it.
There used to be a website that showed clearly, using oscilloscope pictures, the loss when audio was read/burnt at speeds greater than 1x, unfortunately I haven’t been able to find it.
Unless you do as suggested the customer will continue to be dissatisfied.

Audio on a vinyl record or tape is analog. once I transfer it to my harddrive it becomes digital. There is no disputing that.

Easy with the neanderthal stuff BD.
I am sure your 1X burner was good in its day, but with the newer burners and high speed media I can have an error free copy.
From Mitsui
“The physics, chemistry and thermodynamics of the recording process seem to produce more consistent and readable marks within the CD-R recording layer when recording is “2x” or higher. This may be due to the annealing process of pit formation at “1x” where the heat caused by the laser remains focused on the pit for too long. Newer recorders and media are tuned better for the HIGHEST recording speed specified by the manufacturer.”


#18

Originally posted by Black Diamond
However it doesn’t, you need to ‘rip’ using ‘eac/feurio’, a strange neccessity if audio cds were digital.

You use EAC or Feurio in order to know if there were errors or not.
But the ripping process is like any in other ripper and is of course digital.
Data discs have an extra correction layer and you can’t read if there are errors.
Audio discs can be ripped incorrectly without warning. In fact, there were a lot of old CD-ROMs that couldn’t read audio data correctly, jitter problems, etc.

you would have playability issues seen as C-1/C-2 errors, not a drop in overall sound quality. I suggest testing with Nero cdspeed both the original and the burned disks and look for errors in both disks. (crap in = crap out)

The problem is that C1/C2 errors depend on reading drive.
Your LiteOn may read the disc with no C2 errors, but the audio player might have a difficult time (because of weaker laser or whatever) reading the same disc and produce a lot of C2 errors, degrading quality.

jowie, give that person 3 discs burned at 16x, 8x, and 2x, write A, B, C on them, and tell him to try to guess which one is burned at 2x, 8x and 16x, or what disc he prefers.
If he prefers the disc that you know is burned at 2x, then he’s not hearing things, probably…


#19

so perhaps what has happened is the originals are not being read in perfectly and therefore not producing perfect copies?

Unfortunately because these are big hardware boxes I’m not sure there is a setting for error correction or whatever it is that makes ripping CDs that much slower… I will check though.

Thanks for all your help people… Although I won’t take any notice of the comment about Audio CDs being analogue :wink:

having said that Laser Discs are analogue aren’t they!

:-Joe


#20

having said that Laser Discs are analogue aren’t they!

LD are just big cd/dvd’s