90/99 Min. Audio CDs - which writing speed?

vbimport

#1

Hi mates!

I’m thinking of buying a new CD writer, but they mostly start with 8x writing speed. I thought I have to write as slow as possible to overburn CDs?! I read an article on Tom’s Hardware which said: “choose a burn speed that is as low as possible”.

Any experiences with overburning at 8x speed? Of course it will work on some drives, but what about the errors? I want to archive my CDs, so they should be close to perfect.

Thanks & cheers!


#2

Hi Statixx!

Well the idea behind burning slowly is because the higher the burning speed, the higher the “JITTER” or low-level error rate on the CDR. Using professional equipment and testing CDRs, slow burned discs are of higher quality than fast burns. This is just physics–the faster you spin the CD, the more vibration there is and thus the less accurate the burn.

But one thing that complicates this is that due to everybody trying to make everything a bit faster, high speed is the objective these days. CDR media coatings are made to be burned at faster and faster speeds. Some types of media in certain drives don’t burn as well at very slow speeds as at higher speeds it seems. At least that’s what I’ve read here and there–I never found any scientific tests. I guess due to the need for professional testing equipment. But I believe that a good quality CD-R drive should be able to adjust the strength of the laser to adjust for burning speed.

Either way, I have a Liteon 24x CD-R drive and it’s MINIMUM burn speed is 8X. So I’ve burned all of my CD-Rs at 8X. I did overburn a few times with no problems–some Sony CD-Rs gave me an error in the end but the data was all fine and readable.

I believe that burning at below 8X is a waste of time since 8X is slow enough for good burn quality. I’m sure 12x and 16x are fine as well. But you really don’t save much time–8X takes about 9 minutes, and 16x is about 5 minutes. 32X is about 3 minutes. Is a couple of minutes worth reduce burn quality? That’s why I’m fine with 8X–I don’t burn that many CD-Rs that I care about waiting 10 minutes when I do burn one. 5 or 7 minutes would not improve my life in any way…

Tek.


#3

In fact Statixx let me add this: you say you want “close to perfect” burns.

My own extensive testing has shown that the most important thing in getting perfect burns is the match between the CD-R drive and the media! Also the consistency of the media. Some brands are highly inconsistent even in the same stack of discs. CMC Magnetics is one of the worst ones. Taiyo Yuden is considered the best. But sometimes a drive can like a certain batch/brand over another.

The good thing is that you can test the quality using K-Probe with LiteOn drives. I also have a LiteOn DVD Reader on which I test the written discs. It’s best to test on a different drive than the one you wrote it on because you don’t want perfect conditions. In fact it’s nice to test on an old drive just to see how well it can read the disc. If the disc isn’t too good, an old drive may not be able to read it or read it well.

Up to now I have been using the Nero toolkit program–CD-SPEED, to check the quality–I used to do surface scans and see if I get all green blocks (a yellow block means the drive had a little trouble. A red block mean unreadable sector). I could hear if the drive was slowing down–a sign that it has a little trouble reading.

Recently I have been doing the CD-Quality check in CD-SPEED. This shows a graph of the speed and counts the errors. Slowdown are an indication of the drive having trouble reading. Slowdowns can be common near the end since the reading speed goes up. Very good discs can be read all the way to 52x with no slowdowns or errors. But I’m happy if it can be read with no errors all the way through up to 32x too.

K-Probe has become very popular for testing DVD-R/RW. You can find K-Probe scans all over the LiteOn forums here. It’s a program specifically for LiteOn technical analysis for evaluating write quality. You can see what a difference there is between good media and bad media.

Another thing I like to do is to have a CRC check file on my data CD-Rs. .SFV files. After I write the CD-R I run the CRC check which verifies the files are error-free. I have never found a bad file BTW. I guess it’s a very small statistical chance to have a file written wrong. But it’s good to test–maybe instead of the surface scan/quality scan if you know the batch of CD-Rs you are using is consistent and of high quality. It’s time consuming to do two scans–so I choose the CRC instead.

If your discs read fine in a different drive then you have nothing to worry about for the moment. The only thing to be concerned about is aging of the media. Test show a minimum of 20 year media life up to over 100 years, but these are accelerated aging tests. It makes good sense to test your media periodically–maybe once a year to be sure it still reads just as well. A sign of trouble may be the drive as well, so keeping a record of each discs performance is useful and you can compare results in later years. Any sign of true deterioration should prompt you to copy the data immediately to fresh media. Experts recommend that for very important data you should keep two copies on different media types and store them in separate locations to prevent the chance of destruction in case of fire, etc. :frowning:

Lastly I keep all my CD-Rs in Jewel cases (sometimes I stack up to 4 in a single jewel case–the hub keeps them from touching each other–like they are in a spindle. (Saves lots of space). (Now I’m trying to move over to DVD-R due to the ability to store about 6 CD-Rs on one DVD-R.) I then seal the jewel case in a small ziplock bag–and suck the air out a little just as I close it. The most dangerous thing is to keep jewel cases near your CRT monitor–they develop a film–it gets right under the little slits in the jewel case. Ziplock bags keep everything out.

Also I want to mention that LiteOn CD-R drives are renowned for producing the highest-quality and consistent burns. Their DVD-R drives are new and are a little picky about the media–they like the best media–like Taiyo Yuden. But the ability to use K-Probe is what attracts a lot of CD-Freaks. :bigsmile:

Hope this answers all your questions. Ask away if you have any other. :slight_smile:

Regards,
Tek.


#4

Originally posted by statixx

Any experiences with overburning at 8x speed? Of course it will work on some drives, but what about the errors? I want to archive my CDs, so they should be close to perfect.

This one was recorded by Plextor @4x about a year ago. Looks OK to me.

When it comes to overburning, especially 90-99’, I’ve learnt one thing -
one should be very cautious about the write speeds.
The slower the better, but I must stress - it’s my own experience.
The most of my audio stuff is being burnt w Yamaha’s Audio Master Mode, which is around 8x CLV.
I guess this is without no reason. So, don’t be afraid of 8x burning.
And AFAIK all modern drives start with 4x writhing speed.

All in all, if you’re into 90-99’ burning, make sure to get a decent media. It’s essential !


#5

Thank you very much TekWiz for that helpful and elaborately answers - also thanks to BoSkin.

Just to inform you - I’m using TY branded Plextor 48x blanks and before that I used old school Verbatim Data Life Plus, Super AZO 24x discs.

I am currently looking for a new CD-ROM/RW and created a posting, but no one answered so far. I am thinking about buying a Mitsumi CR-485GTE CD-ReWriter, but will also check some Lite-On reviews (didn’t found any actual ones). My Yamaha drive do not know what to do with new media, because the firmware is out of date. I stop here, because it belongs to the other section.

The reason why I am that fussy is, that I record/collect live concerts which were broadcasted by FM or TV. “Lossless” is the best description - I record direct on my harddisc and burn the wave files onto CDs. Each CD could be called an “original”, which I’m going to spread allover the world (we don’t sell them - we simply swap non-officially released CDs). Because the copy of the copy and so on get not better in quality I try to produce CDs with as less errors as possible.

TekWiz I’m also using the Nero toolkit stuff - is there any “better” program for analysis and what did you meant by “jewel cases develop a film” - do you mean the dust? I am storing each CD in a jewel case in a vertically way. Some “wise” guys said the CD material could get deformed due to the gravity over the month and years. Don’t laugh at me but since I read that I’m turing the CDs every 2 month 180 degrees round :wink:

BoSkin you’re right drives start with about 4x writhing speed (when choosing 8x), but the problem are the outer sections which will be written with 8x speed, they produce the “most” errors.

Thanks angain,
cheers
statixx


#6

Originally posted by statixx

The reason why I am that fussy is, that I record/collect live concerts which were broadcasted by FM or TV. “Lossless” is the best description - I record direct on my harddisc and burn the wave files onto CDs. Each CD could be called an “original”, which I’m going to spread allover the world (we don’t sell them - we simply swap non-officially released CDs). Because the copy of the copy and so on get not better in quality I try to produce CDs with as less errors as possible.

Why do you want to use 90 minutes discs?
They are out of spec, they’re not Red Book compliant. A lot of people won’t be able to read them.

If the reason is to store more audio, then I’d suggest to burn 700MB data discs, using a lossless codec, like FLAC, APE, etc.

You’ll save a 40% space, the discs will be compliant, and you’ll have perfect copies.
A data disc will always be read without errors.
Yes, you can’t play them in audio players, but 90 minutes discs can’t be read by a lot of players too.

http://www.feurio.com/English/faq/faq_writer_99mincdr.shtml


#7

Originally posted by minix
Why do you want to use 90 minutes discs?
They are out of spec, they’re not Red Book compliant. A lot of people won’t be able to read them.

If a concert takes more than 81:XX and less than 90 minutes it is annoying to split the show on 2 CDRs. Often it is all about only 2-4 minutes - therefore splitting a concert - no way. But before I’m going to use use a 99 minutes discs I’ll split the show which seems to be more safe for me. My old Yamaha writer can’t calibrate the laser power it says and is not going to do me the favor to write 90 minutes blanks - so I need a new writer.

FLAC or SHN is good for onlinetrading, but my audio-cd-player don’t know what to do with data discs, guess not only mine :wink:


#8

Originally posted by minix

They are out of spec, they’re not Red Book compliant. A lot of people won’t be able to read them.

Yes, you can’t play them in audio players, but 90 minutes discs can’t be read by a lot of players too.

I didn’t bother to add this particular info, simply because those who would use their 90+’ discs wouldn’t really care
whether it’s Red Book compliant or not and would use that media anyway ( pls see the scan once again, I can add some more like this here, if you like ).

I personally didn’t ever keep in mind whether my 90+’ discs would be playable in someone else’s players or not
as long as my own standalone player would play those discs flawlessly.

I don’t use the 90+’ media often, but when the situations as statixx described happen,
there’s no other good alternative.
The main point here is that as long as the final sound quality is great and
there are no unreadable errors occured on the disc, who cares of the Red Book compliancy ?

@statixx,

when I choose 4x, it starts writing @4x and ends @4x,
when choosing 8x, the start speed is about 8x and that is CLV.
In the graph one can ( clearly ) see where the most tense spot is.


#9

Originally posted by statixx

FLAC or SHN is good for onlinetrading, but my audio-cd-player don’t know what to do with data discs, guess not only mine :wink:

Yes, that’s a good reason.

I don’t like them because I can’t find a good manufacturer that makes these discs. (And my drive can’t test the discs like BoSkin does).


#10

Korean [COLOR=blue]SKC would never let me down.[/COLOR]


#11

I’ve also read, that SKC is recommendable.

So, tomorrow will be the day I’m going to buy a new drive - LiteOn LTR-52327S or Mitsumi CR 485GTE - I’ll flip a coin, because there aren’t any informative reviews.

cheers


#12

Originally posted by statixx

I’ve also read, that SKC is recommendable.

Some more :

Although it’s weird that the disc manufacturer stays unknown > [COLOR=blue]96m40s05f

Disc Type = CDR
Lead In = 96:40:05
Lead Out = 79:59:74
Nominal = 702.83MB (79m 59s 74f/LBA:359849)
Manufacturer = Unknown Manufacturer
Cur. Speed = Wrt(16X),Rd(52X)[/COLOR]


#13

The SKC homepage also won’t help.

BoSkin what do you think - which drive should I buy? LiteOn LTR-52327S, Mitsumi CR 485GTE or any other model? No informative answer in the hardware-related forum.

cheers


#14

Hi Statixx!

First, yes there are several LiteOn reviews! Check here:

and specifically of the last LiteOn 52x32x52 writer:
http://cdrlabs.com/reviews/index.php?reviewid=194

Also there’s a review of a new 54x Mitsumi
http://cdrlabs.com/reviews/index.php?reviewid=180

But it didn’t like all the media, and there were some other negatives. LiteOn’s newest writers are highly rated as being able to write great to all media. LiteOn is a much better company than Mitsumi. In fact I never even heard of their CD writers till now.

You were asking about what I meant about the jewel cases and the film. I just noticed that even though I had some discs in jewel cases, a smoky film developed on the read surface on a couple discs that I had near my CRT monitor. Since the jewel case isn’t hermetically sealed contaminants can get in. Even bugs. It’s good practice to seal each jewel case in a ziplock bag and even suck out the air as you close it.

Who knows maybe CDs can warp. But they are small and light so I am skeptical. No disc is perfect–so there is always some vibration. I don’t know that keeping them flat or upright would matter.

You are using good media which is good.

I think you didn’t read my post so carefully–I mention K-Probe for testing CD write quality. BoSkin has posted a scan from K-Probe. This only works on LiteOn drives. The Nero tools keep improving and often show both C1 and C2 errors. K-Probe does this. By using K-Probe you can see that discs written really slowly don’t always do better than discs written faster.

The discussion about 99 minute CD’s: Yes, overburning is not standard and can cause problems on readers. Slight overburning is safe. Extreme overburning is more risky.

I believe that a better choice for long-term archiving of WAV files would be to store them on DVDs. You can put 6.5 CDRs on a single DVD. The media price is about equivalent now.

Another thing you mention: “Because the copy of the copy and so on get not better in quality I try to produce CDs with as less errors as possible.”[B]

This is not true at all–not with digital data–the copy of the copy can easily be better than the original–the exact data is read and re-written–if the media is of better quality the copy would be better than the original. Not that it would sound any better–a copy of a digital file is the same exact file–there is no difference–the question of quality only applies to the integrity of the media itself.

However in the case of audio CDs where there are no actual “data files” to be read, “RIPPING” involves just reading the data stream off the disc. Since there are no CRC checks during the read process data can be read with errors causing crackles or missing audio. This is why programs like EAC are used to RIP the audio files off audio CDs. Most drives now have “Accurate stream” which helps ensure that the audio data is read correctly.

HOWEVER, if you write the WAV files to the CD’s as DATA, which means that when you put the CD into a CD-ROM drive, you can see the WAV files themselves (each is about 50 megs) and copy those files over, then you are not ripping–you are reading computer data files.

Now, when you read computer data files off CD-Rs (and CDs) you CANNOT have any errors or you WON’T BE ABLE TO RETRIEVE THE FILE AT ALL! As a CD-ROM drive reads a file, the file is CRC verified, and if the process fails the computer will stop with an error. That’s why it’s so important to check important data written to CD-R with a CRC checker.

You could create an “.SFV” file of the WAV files before you write them–and you also write the .SFV file to the CD-R. Then you double-click the .SFV file and it will go and read all the WAV files on the CD to make sure the CRC matches.

Lemme know if you need me to clarify anything.

Tek.


#15

Originally posted by statixx

BoSkin what do you think - which drive should I buy?
The answer is short - if you’re into audio try to find [COLOR=blue]Yamaha CRW-F1 whatever it takes.[/COLOR]


#16

Very interesting product but I don’t see how this drive burns better than a standard CD-R drive like the LiteOn. Claims in this business are just that–claims. Digital data is digital data. If a burner burns properly and well, it should burn audio cds just fine. Paying out of the nose for bells and whistles is just foolish. Hehehe–I like that–“designer blue led”. Wow that’s really a great feature! How about an LCD status screen too? Wouldn’t it be great to see what filenames the drive is burning at the moment too? How about an internal camera and a color LCD so you can witness the laser burning too!? That would be so kewl!

How about this?

“DISCT@2â„¢ (DISC TATTOO) LASER LABELING SYSTEM
This revolutionary technology allows burning of text and graphics onto a CD-R disc after the recording process is completed. This is the most professional way of labeling your CDs!”

That’s really unique! They don’t say if you need special CD-Rs for this–I guess you would–probably a laser on the top which burns on some special dye coating on the label side? How long does it take to label a CD? 2 minutes to burn 10 minutes to label?

What are they going to come up with next? A new DVD-R drive with these new and amazing features?

LOL!!!

:iagree:

Tek.


#17

Ignorance is blessing. I just feel pity for you; nothing more, nothing less.


#18

Oh great, another one of Yamaha’s shills… :eek:

With close to 4,000 posts people would think you’d know better–how old are you? 15?

Or maybe you’re just burned out–time to retire… :cool:

:Z


#19

Originally posted by TekWiz

With close to 4,000 posts people would think you’d know better–how old are you? 15?

No, pal, thank God I don’t think and feel the way you do.

Speaking of YF1 I meant Yamaha’s Audio Master Mode,
but you seemed to miss the most important part of the whole thing.

FYI, I have a Plextor, a Yammi, a TEAC, 4 LiteOns CDRs available here. So, if I pointed out the Yamaha,
then there’s a good reason for that, which is known for many good, smart and wise ppl attending this site.
Search and study the site’s content before coming to any premature conclusions.


#20

Hi mates!

As you can see I failed a decission - thanks again - I would have gone for the Yamaha CRW-F1, but since more than one year it is sold out and I kept my old Yamaha CRW-3200E drive till last week.

Here is the result of my 1st data writing operation @ 12x writing speed:
Disc Type = CDR (B-)
Manufacturer = Plasmon Data Systems Ltd.

I guess A+ / B- etc. is the grade of the media.
Which results are good ones and which results should me force to burn the disc again (this one was a single .avi movie file which I want to archive)? Might it be, that I burned (with 12x) to slow for this (40x) media?
Which speed is recommendable for my TY-branded Plextor’s (48x) which will be filled up with audio stuff?
Which K-Probe analyzing speed for audio CD-Rs (which will be played on audio-CD-players) and wich analyzing speed for data (computer discs) is recommendable? I guess the “Max” setting will not interprete the flaws the same way like an audio-CD-player deals with them and so on.
Can a dust particle produce errors which were shown in the graph, what is that green line in the C2 table and what about not removeable (with a soft paintbrush) tiny spots?
I’ve noticed, that with every scan I get a slight different result (e.g. 1 of 4 scans under the same conditions showed a tiny C2 error).
I can ask you some more questions to get sure that you come down to the same gentle way of posting like before :cop:

cheers
statixx