ND-2500/3500: Strat-swap utility needed badly

Hi guys
I somehow managed to get hold of 200 "fake" TYG02 discs from Nierle Media. They are branded Bulkpaq DVD-R 8X and Budget DVD-R 8X but they are most certainly/likely not made by Taiyo Yuden. The appearence of fake TYG02 media has been discussed in the media forum so I don't want to go on and on about it in this thread. My problem is that these fake TYG02's burn very badly on my NEC ND-2500A and ND-3500A - at least according to K's Probe. OC-Freak implied somewhere in the media forum that these discs were most probably manufactured by Infosmart or Anwell. Would it be possible for someone with the right skills (Herrie, Liggy) to help me out here by providing a utility that will allow me to do some stratswapping myself or maybe provide me with a firmware that uses a more suitable writestrategy for this media? Even a simple guide describing how to swap strategies on a NEC would do the trick. I am willing to "sacrifice" a lot of these discs for trial&error if only I can achieve better results than the current ones. I have attached a KProbe scan of the disc burned @ 8X on my ND-3500. It's about the worst result I have ever seen on my "dynamic NEC duo".

I have a feeling that many people will be tricked into buying these very cheap but fake TYG02 discs. So I think it would be really beneficial to many if we can find a more suitable writestrategy for this media. Maybe it turns out to be a quite decent media after all. NEC burners usually have a fantastic ability to burn cheap media with very high quality, right?

Any help would be highly appreciated.

Cheers,
Peter


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unique Disc Identifier : [DVD-R:TYG02]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disc Type : [DVD-R]
Manufacturer ID : [TYG02]
Manufacturer Name : [Taiyo Yuden Co. Ltd.]
Disc Application Code : [Unrestricted Use : Consumer Purpose]
Recording Speeds : [1x , 2x , 4x , 6x , 8x]
Blank Disc Capacity : [2,298,496 Sectors = 4,489.3MB = 4.38GB (4.71GB)]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
** INFO : An Empty Writable Disc Is Recommended For Accurate Results
** INFO : Drive = _NEC DVD_RW ND-3500AG [FW 2.16]
** INFO : Write Capabilities = DVD+R DVD+R-DL DVD+RW DVD-R DVD-RW
** INFO : Disc = [DVD-R:TYG02]
** INFO : Write Speeds (Supported By This Drive On This Disc) Listed Below

** INFO : GET PERFORMANCE Write Speed Descriptor(s)
Descriptor #1 = 16620 KBPS (12.00x) - [CLV/Non-Pure CAV]
Descriptor #2 = 11080 KBPS ( 8.00x) - [CLV/Non-Pure CAV]
Descriptor #3 = 8310 KBPS ( 6.00x) - [CLV/Non-Pure CAV]
Descriptor #4 = 5540 KBPS ( 4.00x) - [CLV/Non-Pure CAV]
Descriptor #5 = 2770 KBPS ( 2.00x) - [CLV/Non-Pure CAV]

** INFO : MODE SENSE Write Speed Descriptor(s) [Legacy Command]
Descriptor #1 = 8467 KBPS ( 6.00x) - [CLV/Non-Pure CAV]
Descriptor #2 = 7056 KBPS ( 5.09x) - [CLV/Non-Pure CAV] - [Invalid Entry]
Descriptor #3 = 5645 KBPS ( 4.00x) - [CLV/Non-Pure CAV]
Descriptor #4 = 4234 KBPS ( 3.06x) - [CLV/Non-Pure CAV] - [Invalid Entry]
Descriptor #5 = 2822 KBPS ( 2.00x) - [CLV/Non-Pure CAV]
Descriptor #6 = 1411 KBPS ( 1.00x) - [CLV/Non-Pure CAV]
** WARNING : Drive May Have Returned Incorrect Descriptors
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
** INFO : Hex Dump Of 'Media Code'-Block Listed Below
** INFO : 4-Byte Header Preceding 'Media Code'-Block Discarded
** INFO : Format 0Eh - Pre-Recorded Information In Lead-In
0000 : 01 40 c1 fd 9e d8 52 00 02 87 0d 10 66 78 80 00 .@....R.....fx..
0010 : 03 54 59 47 30 32 00 00 04 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 .TYG02..........
0020 : 05 aa a2 22 22 20 02 00 06 08 0e 11 87 78 80 00 ..."" .......x..
0030 : 07 88 80 00 00 00 00 00 08 06 13 0d 10 0e 07 00 ................
0040 : 09 97 07 0d 0b 78 88 00 0a 80 00 00 00 00 10 00 .....x..........
0050 : 0b 06 18 17 85 78 75 00 0c d6 89 a8 92 01 20 00 .....xu....... .
0060 : 0d 10 00 d0 00 00 00 00 0e 09 21 35 2d 29 1b 00 ..........!5-)..
0070 : 0f 50 1b 2b 1d 97 b5 00 10 88 84 00 04 00 04 00 .P.+............
0080 : 11 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 12 09 2d 35 2d 2b 1a 00 ..........-5-+..
0090 : 13 50 1d 2b 1f 97 b5 00 14 88 80 00 00 00 00 00 .P.+............
00a0 : 15 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
00b0 : 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
00c0 : 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
00d0 : 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
00e0 : 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
00f0 : 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
[DVD Identifier - http://DVD.Identifier.CDfreaks.com]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Last edited by pdu; 30-08-2004 at 23:06. Reason: Misspelled title/subject

The problem with the ND-3500A is it appears to have just one default strategy for -R media, and adjusts that strategy in realtime depending on the media being burned.
It must have a media table somewhere, i'm not sure any one has found it or fully understood it as yet.

If you have that many fake media, why don't you return them for a refund?

I have the same discs (also from Nierle). So far i wasted five discs on my ND-3500. I also tested the TDK 2.77 firmware on these, but that didn't improve anything. I would be very pleased if strat-swapping makes these discs usefull again. Maybe CodeKing can do some of his magic, he is also the proud owner of a ND-3500.

By any chance, are those MIRROR branded media?

A fix for the ND-2500 would be sufficient for me - untill somebody figures out how the ND-3500 deals with it's strategies. I have contacted Nierle regarding a refund but they haven't replied yet. On the other hand I have had very good results with the ND-2500 and other cheap media (like IS01.001) so I was kind of hoping that this media might turn out to be useable as well.

Nope, they are branded Bulkpaq and Budget.

Cheers

Good luck with the refund, i think that is the way to go rather than trying to find a suitable write strategy for the media.
If anyone can sort something for your ND-2500 Herrie can But he's a busy man at the moment.

Update:
Read somewhere that there are some fake TYG02's around made by a company called Gigastorage (sounds Chinese to me). Apparently the reason for using the TYG02 mediacode is that their own mediacode (whatever that might be, GSC003???) is not supported by that many firmwares. What a totally lame idea to use another completely incompatible mediacode like TYG02 just to make sure the media has an entry in the firmware. The burnresults clearly imply that this is NOT the way to do it. What a bunch of idiots

I really hope Herrie reads this and may be able to help me out.

Nierle removed the brand name of Taiyo Yuden on the Budget description but the Bulpaq 8X still reads :

http://www.nierle1.com/s01.php?sid=P...pp=aa&bnr=2222

DVD-R 4,7 GB (G) Bulkpaq 8x bedruckt Spindel 25 Stück

MEDIAINFORMATION Media code/Mfr ID Taiyo Yuden G02
Media type V2.2 DVD-R

I think this is enough evidence for a law case for forgery.

AFAIK the TYG02 mediacode is not protected by copyright/trademark laws (TY's decision). However stating that this is Taiyo Yuden media is a different story. I think Nierle are very well aware of the fact that this disc is not manufactured by TY so they are just covering their "buts". However the damage is done and their reputation is at stake here. But maybe they don't care at all?? I used to be very happy with Nierle due to a) great prices and b) MID codes available on their website. However lately I have received media with different MID codes than advertised. Fortunately Herrie's great work saved my behind every time. This time it's different though. The MID is as advertised but the discs are not made by TY. So every burner gets fooled into using a wrong writestrategy.

@Herrie/Liggy
Can you help me/us???

I don't want to give away my firmware patcher since it's a little bit too difficult to handle, if you don't know what you are looking for.
But I could try to create a few test firmwares that give TYG02 media a different writing strategy.
I'll take the original 2.16 as a base for this. I hope the results will be better with these test firmwares.
PDU should get an email during the next few minutes

I'd try the GSC003 strat first, then maybe the Prodisc S04.

Thanks Liggy. I got your email but I wont be able to try the fw before tomorrow evening since I'm at a different PC now and I'll be at work tomorrow during the daytime.

Your help is very much appreciated. Thanks.

CHEERS

@Liggy
Once again thanks for sending me the firmwares. I tried all 7 but none of them worked especially well. The best result was achieved using the 3500_infosmart.bin firmware. Max recording was 6X, which is a tad to slow IMHO. The result achieved with the original 2.16 TYG02 strategy was a bit better and it allowed burning @ 8X. So it's still the preferred one - though it sucks big time.

Here's the KProbe scan with the "infosmart" firmware

My guess is that no matter what write strategy you use for this media, the results will be disappointing. Not trying to be a party pooper here, but you can't get much worse than "Bulkpaq" media from Nierle as far as quality is concerned.

This isn't the first time fake Taiyo Yuden media is being sold by online vendors btw. Happened a few times with CDRs as well. And the quality was awful back then also...

I've tried other Bulkpaq media that gave much better results than this. Since it not very common for NEC burners to produce such bad results I still think the key to success with this media is finding the correct write strategy.

Could you post scans made with the other firmwares? Are there bigger differences at all? If not, it's possible that I changed the wrong strategy. Since you can no longer recognize the supported writing speeds with the latest firmwares, it's a little bit more complicated to decide with which strategy the firmware starts.

I'll post some more scans tonight after work. However, of the 7 firmwares only 2 of them produced discs that could be tested with Nero CD/DVD Speed Test without errors, so I only made KProbe scans of these discs (one of them was the infosmart). I'll post a few more scans to clarify whether there are any differences at all.

Would it be easier to modify the ND-2500 firmware? I don't expect this media to burn any higher than 8X so it's not important that it is usable on the ND-3500.

Cheers

Tonight after work? How long do you have to work?

I think modifying the 2500 is a little bit easier at the moment, since some things are not 100% clear with the 3500 yet. Just tell me which firmware I should base my tests on. But I can compare the infosmart strategy with the original TY strategy and have a look at how some values differ.

Too long I'm afraid I expect to be seated in front of my PC around 19:30.

I would appreciate i you could take Herrie's 107v2b5 as the base since this is my preferred firmware for the ND-2500.

Just tested the media written with the infosmart firmware here at work. The media gave a read error towards the end. It was however readable at home . I guess this rules out the infosmart as a replacement as well.

I guess that will be about the time, when I get home too. But we're visiting a colleague at about 16:30 and then drink some cocktails with her

OK. Maybe I can build some test firmwares at work already. I'll mail them to you again. Good I have my Necpatcher here as well

Errors were not unexpected. But I tried to have a good variation of strategies that look very different.

Thanks a lot for the warning, I was just about to order a few of these Bulkpaqs from Nierle to test my brank spanking new ND-3500, but I guess I will try to find another disc to try out. I'll have a look in the Media Forum and see if I can find out what to buy

@Liggy
Thanks, Appreciated
I have asked Bulkpaq if they could "reveal" the real manufacturer of the media. Just to get a hint og a suitable strategy. No reply yet though.

I've just sent you a few *cough* firmwares anyways. Have fun with testing