Old 08-08-2005   #1
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Why is there child porn on p2p?

You hear of all these people who spread child porn across the p2p networks, but I'm wondering how this keeps happening? Surely the police, knowing that the stuff happens and exists just track the IP of those transmitting and recieving and bust their asses?

And also knowing this is a possibility, how come those who transmit it bother... they have nothing to gain, no profit - only a jail sentence.

It just completely perplexes me as to why this is happening.
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Old 08-08-2005   #2
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Re: Why is there child porn on p2p?

Cos they are too busy trying to catch Movie and Music downloaders
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Old 08-08-2005   #3
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Re: Why is there child porn on p2p?

*shrugs*
I've never come across child porn.
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Old 08-08-2005   #4
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Re: Why is there child porn on p2p?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRabbi
Cos they are too busy trying to catch Movie and Music downloaders
I find that incredibly difficult to believe with the amount of hysteria surrounding child molestation and pornography in this day and age, to the point that a UK show 'Monkey Dust' has actually mocked society itself for pointing the finger at potentially everyone as being a would be 'paedophile' (or more correctly, 'molester' as a paedophile is someone attracted to a child regardless of intent, however 'paedophile' is the term that the media has used, hence the show's use of it).

Surely the police can get more on someone for having child porn than illegally downloading a music track?
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Old 08-08-2005   #5
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Re: Why is there child porn on p2p?

Quote:
Originally Posted by groovemeister
Surely the police can get more on someone for having child porn than illegally downloading a music track?
Nope. See, here's the thing - in BOTH cases you need to go to a judge and get a search warrant. Child crime units are overwhelmed as it is, and there's nobody with absurdly deep pockets funding them. Not only that, but it has been REINFORCED lately that search warrants and subpoenas are hard to get.

COULD they get someone's IP? Yes. DO they? Undoubtedly. People who share child porn on P2P networks are stupid.

But it doesn't happen as often as you might think. You'd think they'd bust everyone, but honestly it's not worth their time. Here's why:

Let's say they see someone sharing a file that they know is kiddy porn. They get that person's IP. Now they have to:

- Go to a judge for a subpoena.
- Subpoena that person's ISP for their name/address.
- Go back to another judge for a search warrant.
- Enter that person's home, seize their PC, and submit it for forensic analysis.

Now, what happens when, as is the case in I'm sure the MAJORITY of cases, all they find in that search/analysis is a couple of ambiguously named files in their shared folder? Or nothing at all? What if that person viewed the file, went "oh dear God I've gotten more kiddy porn when I was really looking for naked pics of Britney Spears" and deletes it? Here in the USA, entering someone's home and taking their PC without "probable cause" is grounds for a GIGANTIC lawsuit. Accusing someone of child pornmongering RUINS THEIR LIFE whether or not they're guilty, and if they AREN'T guilty they will sue the police and WIN BIG.

So now what they need to do, from their point of view, is ONLY enter someone's home when they see a clear pattern of illegal material sharing - over time, replicable. Or when they see someone UPLOADING (not just sharing out) child porn. Or when they see someone TALKING about it in a chat room or on Kazaa chat or whatever. Judges are less willing than ever to give out search warrants without REAL PROBABLE CAUSE.

Does that answer your question? Undoubtedly the way they DO catch some serious offenders is by tracking their IP - but there's a reason they don't bust EVERYONE who does that.

Now, to a more pertinent question - why aren't Sharman Networks working more closely with law enforcement to curb the kiddy porn over P2P problem? Hmm? Why can't the FBI send a weekly list to Sharman of filenames (or partial filenames) that indicate child porn content and have those filtered OUT of the Kazaa servers? THAT is a much better question.
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Old 08-08-2005   #6
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Re: Why is there child porn on p2p?

I agree. There are floods of kiddie porn on p2p. How much of it is real kiddie porn I don’t know. It depends if the stuff labelled "teen" is over, or under, the legal modelling age (normally 18). For example it could be teen and have 18 and 19 year old models, or it could be "teen" and have 14 year old girls. Or it could just be mislabelled crap. My advice is to not look for normal porn on p2p, then you will only rarely see any potential child porn. I guess it just down to down official's time and money. If each user is hosing maybe only a handful of files, and there are thousands of users each doing this is very hard to prosecute. Especially if every one can put it down to not knowing what it was when they downloaded it (for example the term "teen"). Even if they where found to have it, nothing would happen for the sake of a few files. If there was one server hosing thousands of files, of cause they would track it, and the person hosing it would get a large about of prison time most likely. I know it should not be there, but so shouldn’t many things in the world. It just comes down to priorities of what problem is worst. I would rather police spent time catching the people that where making the videos and abusing kids.
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Old 08-08-2005   #7
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Re: Why is there child porn on p2p?

Apparantly it is possible to keep an eye these peoples connections where i live a guy was actually caught downloading pictures of Kiddie Porn and/or Uploading pictures of his 3 year old Daughter and has now sat since April on remand according to reorts here they had recieved a tipp off from someone then started watching what he was upto whilst this isnt a funny subject this person was so dumb he was using AOL.
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Old 08-08-2005   #8
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Re: Why is there child porn on p2p?

IMO it takes a sick person to indulge in child pornography. They have no sense of morals what-so-ever and don't care about the mental/emotional effect this will have on the child/ren future life. Sick perverted bastards
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Old 08-08-2005   #9
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Re: Why is there child porn on p2p?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurm
Nope. See, here's the thing - in BOTH cases you need to go to a judge and get a search warrant. Child crime units are overwhelmed as it is, and there's nobody with absurdly deep pockets funding them. Not only that, but it has been REINFORCED lately that search warrants and subpoenas are hard to get.

COULD they get someone's IP? Yes. DO they? Undoubtedly. People who share child porn on P2P networks are stupid.

But it doesn't happen as often as you might think. You'd think they'd bust everyone, but honestly it's not worth their time. Here's why:

Let's say they see someone sharing a file that they know is kiddy porn. They get that person's IP. Now they have to:

- Go to a judge for a subpoena.
- Subpoena that person's ISP for their name/address.
- Go back to another judge for a search warrant.
- Enter that person's home, seize their PC, and submit it for forensic analysis.

Now, what happens when, as is the case in I'm sure the MAJORITY of cases, all they find in that search/analysis is a couple of ambiguously named files in their shared folder? Or nothing at all? What if that person viewed the file, went "oh dear God I've gotten more kiddy porn when I was really looking for naked pics of Britney Spears" and deletes it? Here in the USA, entering someone's home and taking their PC without "probable cause" is grounds for a GIGANTIC lawsuit. Accusing someone of child pornmongering RUINS THEIR LIFE whether or not they're guilty, and if they AREN'T guilty they will sue the police and WIN BIG.

So now what they need to do, from their point of view, is ONLY enter someone's home when they see a clear pattern of illegal material sharing - over time, replicable. Or when they see someone UPLOADING (not just sharing out) child porn. Or when they see someone TALKING about it in a chat room or on Kazaa chat or whatever. Judges are less willing than ever to give out search warrants without REAL PROBABLE CAUSE.

Does that answer your question? Undoubtedly the way they DO catch some serious offenders is by tracking their IP - but there's a reason they don't bust EVERYONE who does that.
Yes, it pretty much does answer the question, thanks! If it's approximately the same risk as downloading a music track or TV show as we've all or mostly done, I'm not suprised it's so abundant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robbo
Apparantly it is possible to keep an eye these peoples connections where i live a guy was actually caught downloading pictures of Kiddie Porn and/or Uploading pictures of his 3 year old Daughter and has now sat since April on remand according to reorts here they had recieved a tipp off from someone then started watching what he was upto whilst this isnt a funny subject this person was so dumb he was using AOL.
So how do these two match up then? And how the HELL did he get found out? If people can't monitor your online activities without good cause what did he do? Leave his windows open whilst he was doing it?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurm
Now, to a more pertinent question - why aren't Sharman Networks working more closely with law enforcement to curb the kiddy porn over P2P problem? Hmm? Why can't the FBI send a weekly list to Sharman of filenames (or partial filenames) that indicate child porn content and have those filtered OUT of the Kazaa servers? THAT is a much better question.
I'm pretty sure that if they did that, they'd technically become responsible for everything else on there, i.e. if they can filter child porn, they can filter illegal music, TV shows, movies, etc. and if they can, they legally should.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurm
Now they have to:

- Go to a judge for a subpoena.
- Subpoena that person's ISP for their name/address.
- Go back to another judge for a search warrant.
- Enter that person's home, seize their PC, and submit it for forensic analysis.
Surely the last step isn't necessary? Doesn't your ISP log everything that you download for a whole year?
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Old 08-08-2005   #10
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Re: Why is there child porn on p2p?

[QUOTE=groovemeister]So how do these two match up then?

They match up because:

1. This guy UPLOADED something identifiable (pics of his daughter), and was using AOL.

I'm not saying these people don't get caught. I'm saying that the casual person who has a huge directory of porn shared out and a few of the items are either questionable or downright illegal... is hard to nab, and might not even be guilty. Now, multiply that by a hundred or a thousand or 500,000 and all of a sudden you have a TON of child porn on P2P networks, but none of it is being uploaded by hardcore sickos.

In fact, I'd estimate that only a TINY percentage of the kiddy porn on P2P is from actual perverts, most of it is mislabeled regular porn, or stuff that got downloaded by mistake or spurious files. I'm sure MOST people who use P2P apps have gotten a few files here and there that are questionable. Again, multiply it out exponentially.
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Old 08-08-2005   #11
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Re: Why is there child porn on p2p?

Quote:
Originally Posted by groovemeister
So how do these two match up then?
They match up because:

1. This guy UPLOADED something identifiable (pics of his daughter), and was using AOL.

I'm not saying these people don't get caught. I'm saying that the casual person who has a huge directory of porn shared out and a few of the items are either questionable or downright illegal... is hard to nab, and might not even be guilty. Now, multiply that by a hundred or a thousand or 500,000 and all of a sudden you have a TON of child porn on P2P networks, but none of it is being uploaded by hardcore sickos.

In fact, I'd estimate that only a TINY percentage of the kiddy porn on P2P is from actual perverts, most of it is mislabeled regular porn, or stuff that got downloaded by mistake or spurious files. I'm sure MOST people who use P2P apps have gotten a few files here and there that are questionable. Again, multiply it out exponentially.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure that if they did that, they'd technically become responsible for everything else on there, i.e. if they can filter child porn, they can filter illegal music, TV shows, movies, etc. and if they can, they legally should.
That's entirely possible. And lord knows they wouldn't want to be responsible for THAT in any way. But honestly that's one of the things that lets the **AA keep winning cases - P2P manufacturers are EXTREMELY reluctant to put in any kind of filtering at all.
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Old 08-08-2005   #12
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Re: Why is there child porn on p2p?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurm
So how do these two match up then?

They match up because:

1. This guy UPLOADED something identifiable (pics of his daughter), and was using AOL.
Are you saying that someone who knew him saw the pics of his daughter and therefore knew it must have been him? Surely the person who saw that must've been looking for that kind of thing, and makes them questionable, or do you mean something else?

As for "he was using AOL", I don't know much about AOL apart from it's crap - how did that help incriminate him?
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Old 08-08-2005   #13
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Re: Why is there child porn on p2p?

Quote:
Originally Posted by groovemeister
Are you saying that someone who knew him saw the pics of his daughter and therefore knew it must have been him? Surely the person who saw that must've been looking for that kind of thing, and makes them questionable, or do you mean something else?

As for "he was using AOL", I don't know much about AOL apart from it's crap - how did that help incriminate him?
How they actually found out no idea but according to the papers they had been monitoring him for a while due to a tip but the fact that when the Police raided and they actually caught the guy redhanded Downloading/Uploading is to much of a coincidence.

The referance to AOL was actually a referance to the fact that the guy has no or little idea with Computers or Internet and that generally AOL users are not so technically minded this i know from experiance fixing the bloody computers from these Poeple ( AOL users that is ) and i also know that here where i live there was a Orthopedic Doctor who used to work for a group that were/are trying to stop Kiddie Porn on AOL and other ISPs and if i remember correctly from the press report about this in the local paper at the time AOL took quite an active interest in stopping folks using there Service for this.
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Old 08-08-2005   #14
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Re: Why is there child porn on p2p?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robbo
The referance to AOL was actually a referance to the fact that the guy has no or little idea with Computers or Internet and that generally AOL users are not so technically minded
Ah, yes - I get exactly what you mean now!! Yes, often when people have told me that they are on AOL and especially when they have said how good they think it is, I have rolled my eyes. Spoon-fed crap that only gives you a hint of what the web has to offer, usually all commercial or purchased/sponsored stuff, coupled with high prices and poor bandwidth in comparison.

Anyway, as for the 'identifiable' thing, it's my guess that someone was a bit suspicious, told the police and who probably went out to obtain the images themselves. That makes me wonder, you know... how many police are in this game to use the opportunity to get the material themselves? Sort of like when a cop confiscates drugs?
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Old 09-08-2005   #15
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Re: Why is there child porn on p2p?

I've read lots of news stories about people getting busted for kiddy porn and MOST of the time it's like anything else - they were UPLOADING, SUPPLYING, or PRODUCING. Part of the reason for that is that busts of small-time downloaders isn't news. Another part of the reason is that it's much MUCH harder to trace people who casually download a file here or there. i'm not advocating it, FAR from it (I'm a parent, I find the entire concept disgusting) but rather I'm saying it's like anything else online - the little people don't get caught/busted.

And since P2P networks are a conglomeration of "little people" - millions of them - that explains the pervasiveness.
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Old 09-08-2005   #16
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Re: Why is there child porn on p2p?

I never though that that crap that gets on the internet was a problem, if you find yourself on a website you don't like you leave, you find questionable material you hit back to the search and go else where but then there is the problem when you use a p2p program like Freenet (It allows anybody to publish and read information with complete anonymity. ----> see Frost for p2p file sharing on freenet). Everyone on freenet stores everything that passes thier part of the network and helps other people accesses it. I stopped using freenet as I did not like the idea that I could be speading this crap unknowingly and help storing it so some sick guy can get of to it at a later date.

Here is a quote from there FAQ.
I don't want my node to be used to harbor child porn, offensive content or terrorism. What can I do? Source
The true test of someone who claims to believe in Freedom of Speech is whether they tolerate speech which they disagree with, or even find disgusting. If this is not acceptable to you, you should not run a Freenet node. There is another thing you can do. Since content in Freenet is available as long as its popular, you can help limit the popularity of whatever information you do not like. For example, if you do not want a file to spread you should not request it and tell everyone you know not to request that specific key. However, keep in mind that freenet is not designed so as to only allow communication between people if a sufficient number of people agree with the communication. Freenet is designed to make communication possible even if there's just one publisher and one reader, and this is already reasonably feasible on the current freenet.
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Old 09-08-2005   #17
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Re: Why is there child porn on p2p?

So let me get this right ... you allocate large chunks of your HD & bandwidth to some anonymous people that may or may not want to store illegal material which is likely not of any relevance to you personally.

Sounds like a real bright person came up with that one....

Do you get to decide whether to store illegal material locally or remotely.... A perv could store an entire kiddy porn collection on some (or many) poor suckers HD's and never actually possess a single image on their PC, other than a few cached images that the sick perv has viewed
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Old 09-08-2005   #18
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Re: Why is there child porn on p2p?

Quote:
Originally Posted by debro
So let me get this right ... you allocate large chunks of your HD & bandwidth to some anonymous people that may or may not want to store illegal material which is likely not of any relevance to you personally.

Sounds like a real bright person came up with that one....

Do you get to decide whether to store illegal material locally or remotely.... A perv could store an entire kiddy porn collection on some (or many) poor suckers HD's and never actually possess a single image on their PC, other than a few cached images that the sick perv has viewed
There's that possibility. In reality it's not all that likely. And they make a point to encrypt everything. You are protected in that you CAN'T know what's on your hard drive. (There are programs to crack and view your local cache, but they're slow and imperfect...)

But yeah, it's sort of like a parcel passing service. You've got a whole lot of parcels in your basement, addressed to other people. You agree not to open them unless they're addressed to you. Could they have terrorist communications or illegal goat porn in them? Sure. But part of the whole "protecting free speech" thing is agreeing not to open them and/or censor them. It's a double edged sword, and it sucks.
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Old 09-08-2005   #19
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Re: Why is there child porn on p2p?

I think that if you use Frost over freenet then it comes down to this: -

From there FAQ...

What about child porn, offensive content or terrorism?
While most people wish that child pornography and terrorism did not exist, humanity should not be deprived of their freedom to communicate just because of how a very small number of people might use that freedom (for).

If you can live with the possiblity then use freenet, if not then use mute or other anonymous file sharing programs. With mute or other networks you don't have to be a party whither knowingly or unknowingly to the spread of this crap (not much more than a router as data passes through your connection but is not stored).

With the way the music and movie industry are going with law suits and spyware/malware companies with thier virus programs, soon everyone will be using programs day to day to protect there privicy and shield themselves from law suits from organizations up to no good.
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