Old 17-03-2012   #1
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cinavia protection on sony dvd players?

Was just wondering, I have been burning movies for years, when I rip them I use Fab, when I convert, I use ConvertXtodvd. I personally have never had an issue, except when I bought a sony dvd player. I first thought it wasn't playing a dvd because it was a region 5 copy, but the blank dvd was a regular verbatim dvd, plus I use NTSC in ConvertXtodvd

Now, I just sent my friends mom 3 movies that were on one dvd, she said that particular dvd didn't work, the others did. Now, it could have been a bad burn, maybe, never had that happen before.

I asked her if her dvd player was sony, she said yes.

So my question is, does the cinavia protection only come into play on ps3's? OR dvd players by sony as well?
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Old 17-03-2012   #2
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Re: cinavia protection on sony dvd players?

Cinavia will give you a specific message: “Playback stopped. The content being played is protected by Cinavia™ and is not authorized for playback on this device.
For more information, see http://www.cinavia.com.
Message Code 1.”
That is typically what you will see. Also it stops the audio and not the video stream.

It is more likely a poor conversion by ConvertX from PAL to NTSC standards.

This page shows players that have Cinavia and those that do not: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinavia It seems fairly up to date. There is another at the Slysoft forum: http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=41885
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Old 17-03-2012   #3
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Thanks, must have been a bad conversion/burn.

SO to be clear, does it pop up for cinavia for dvd players as well, or just playstations generally?
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Old 17-03-2012   #4
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Re: cinavia protection on sony dvd players?

Cinavia hardware support is generally seen in a few blu ray players, with the PS3 being the most common. If there is a dvd player that has support for it, I'm not aware of it, but I haven't kept up very closely with them, so there could certainly be a few out there.

Cinavia support in blu ray players will become more common, since the licensing agreements for AACS will make it a requirement.
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Old 17-03-2012   #5
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Re: cinavia protection on sony dvd players?

Okay, it was a DVD, but the player itself could have been a dvd/blueray. So it generally just picks that up on the blue ray side of things? Anyway, thanks
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Old 18-03-2012   #6
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Re: cinavia protection on sony dvd players?

That Wikipedia page shows ten dvds that are known to have Cinavia protection. Since blu ray players can play both dvds and blu ray, those players that support Cinavia would detect it in any copies made from those particular dvds.

As I said, there may be some pure dvd players that support Cinavia also, but I am not aware of any specific models.
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Old 18-03-2012   #7
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DVD players don't support Cinavia as it's part of the AACS specifications and not the DVD-Video specifications.

As far as I'm aware Cinavia only appears on certain DVDs to prevent people substituting the DVD soundtrack on the equivalent Cinavia protected Blu-ray.

As Kerry says Blu-ray players will detect Cinavia on DVDs, if it's present, but DVD players won't.


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Old 18-03-2012   #8
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Re: cinavia protection on sony dvd players?

I doubt it would take much more than specialized firmware to make a dvd player that can detect Cinavia, so we may see, sometime in the future, new dvd players that support it. The PS3 was converted in this fashion after all.

There is no legal impetus for such a change, but those hardware manufacturers that are also heavily invested in media production may choose to add it. DVD players are a very mature market at this point however, with fewer and fewer new models coming out that are simple dvd players. The millions of existing players without Cinavia compliance also make this less likely to occur.

The media companies have had tremendous success in dictating hardware changes to suit their own needs. HDCP, HDMI ports and the abolition of analog connections capable of carrying high definition video in new blu ray players are examples of their meddling. I have no doubt they will try to push Cinavia compliance in other hardware whenever they can, whether they have binding agreements or not. Two targets for such arm twisting might be the tvs themselves, or media streaming devices.

Personally, I believe Cinavia in streaming media boxes would be the death of that growing industry, but give the studios some credit for persistence. They never give up trying to control how we play the movies they deign to sell us.
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Old 18-03-2012   #9
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Yes but the PS3 supports AACS as part of the Blu-ray specifications.

DVD players operate according to the DVD-Video specifications and there's no simple way of adding in AACS support.

It's far easier just to go the whole way and produce a Blu-ray player that supports the lot than try to re-engineer the existing DVD technology.

Even if it were possible the main barrier in my mind would be the AACS licensing costs as there's no economic incentive to licence AACS for a standalone DVD player.

If a company is licensing AACS then they'll want to produce a Blu-ray player instead of limiting their investment and it's more likely in my mind that dedicated DVD players will eventually disappear altogether (presumably when Blu-ray players become cheap budget items).

At the moment streaming media players don't need to support AACS as part of their function and it's therefore in the interests of their manufacturers to avoid AACS licensing fees.

It's a bit of a 'Catch 22' situation in that the AACS people want to make money from licensing their product and the media streaming manufacturers have no need for AACS so won't pay to support it.

I can see it being quite likely that this situation will persist for a while yet as the media producers seem entirely focused on short term profits and appear incapable of stemming their immediate greed even if it would close a significant loophole.

Let's hope that this remains the case.


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Old 18-03-2012   #10
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Re: cinavia protection on sony dvd players?

@ Wombler: Cinavia can be licensed separately from AACS. In fact, AACS licenses it as part of their spec. I therefore wouldn't count Sony out as possibly licensing Cinavia for their DVD players...
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Old 18-03-2012   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olyteddy View Post
@ Wombler: Cinavia can be licensed separately from AACS. In fact, AACS licenses it as part of their spec. I therefore wouldn't count Sony out as possibly licensing Cinavia for their DVD players...
It's now a compulsory part of AACS but also requires BD-J to run so it's unlikely to be licensed separately for DVD use as both of these go hand in hand as part of the existing Blu-ray specifications.

Plus standalone DVD players don't have the processing power or indeed the mechanism to run BD-J.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to develop one, just that it would be prohibitively expensive compared to just producing a normal Blu-ray player that already carries out all these functions (and more) and complies with existing specs.

Also there are millions of DVD players (in fact every DVD player that's ever been produced) that completely ignore Cinavia and can't be forced to update so there's no real gain as the impact of releasing a Cinavia DVD player would be almost non-existent.

I just think it's very unlikely that manufacturers would spend time and money on researching and developing a DVD player that emulates only a portion of the functionality of a Blu-ray player when they can produce an all singing all dancing Blu-ray player for less.


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Old 19-03-2012   #12
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Re: cinavia protection on sony dvd players?

Wombler, are you certain BD-J is required for Cinavia detection? Blu ray movies that contain Cinavia in the audio stream can be converted to virtually any other format and still have the Cinavia audio watermark detected, and those other formats, like .mkv and .avi files have no connection to the BD-J mechanisms in the player.

I've been looking around today, and can find no link between Cinavia and BD-J, other than a few paranoid speculations on what BD-J might eventually be used for.
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Old 19-03-2012   #13
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Re: cinavia protection on sony dvd players?

Yeah, Cinavia is embedded in Movie Theater soundtracks too, so a Cinavia infected player will stop playback on screeners and other bootlegs too.
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Old 19-03-2012   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerry56 View Post
Wombler, are you certain BD-J is required for Cinavia detection? Blu ray movies that contain Cinavia in the audio stream can be converted to virtually any other format and still have the Cinavia audio watermark detected, and those other formats, like .mkv and .avi files have no connection to the BD-J mechanisms in the player.

I've been looking around today, and can find no link between Cinavia and BD-J, other than a few paranoid speculations on what BD-J might eventually be used for.
Apologies, I'd gleaned the BD-J portion from a misleading article.

It's not entirely clear what the Cinavia detection routines are written in but it has however been confirmed by Verance that it is platform independent.

The watermark forms part of the actual audio so it's preserved regardless of the format but it's only detected and acted upon by devices that already support Cinavia.

Sorry for any confusion.


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