PSU and UPS incompatibility

**geno888** · 21-06-2012

In these days I'm reading a lot of reviews.

Just few minutes ago I found something that confused (and scared

) me... it seems that some PSU can be incompatible with UPS.

Read here.

Now I'm even more confused. Is it possible that I fried so many HDDs because my UPS was not compatible with the PSU???

I never heard about these issues, and actually I didn't understand exactly what is the problem described in that article. Can someone help to understand this thing?

*AllanDeGroot* · 21-06-2012

Uhhhh... this is a really simple issue.

and excuse me if I say it in a somewhat rude way (rudeness directed at the
review article's author)

It seems these PSU's run a higher input load than other PSU's of similar capacity he's tested.

But the reality is that an APC620 really isn't designed to supply that much current
for more than a momentary surge load.

Basically I'm saying that he bought too small of a UPS

a good "Rule of thumb" for UPS selection is to choose one that will supply >twice the peak load of your PSU.
HIS UPS will run his computer for about 10min, basically just long enough to save and shut down before the smart UPS reaches it's own emergency shutdown point.

My UPS runs the computer long enough to finish whatever I might be doing, then check my e-mail one more time,
then shut down manually... if the power hasn't come back on 40min before that thought occours to me...

This MIGHT be why when I bought my UPS last year I got an APC 1300.

And I only run a stock HP 475w PSU

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**geno888** · 21-06-2012

Thanks for your answer

I forgot to mention that this is my UPS, and the PSU is a seasonic S12 II 330W

*coolcolors* · 21-06-2012

There some good info I was thinking of next year or this year if finances permit to get a good UPS and now that I have a 750W Antec that mean it has to be at least 1500W ups... wow....wonder if I can afford or get a UPS with that rating??? Guess I have to look carefully....at the rating for the UPS when I go to look at one.

*eric93se* · 21-06-2012

There's no question that your UPS should be rated far ahead of your PC's power draw.

Apart from power draw there is the fact that the majority of UPS's out there produce a square wave and some PSU's don't like that wave form which leads to another form of incompatibility. To get a UPS that produces a true sin wave will cost at least 4x as much.

**geno888** · 21-06-2012

Indeed I found an example

*SubZero* · 22-06-2012

If at any time your UPS rating is lower than your PSU rating, you may be tempting fate for mission critical needs.

Add monitor to PSU requirements for most system, plus any other item on battery plug and under maximum load you may push edges of UPS limitations.

Unlike old days though, modern PC's no longer draw max power at boot most times, so likelihood of actually reaching full draw is greatly reduced, since not every single component will likely be taxed at same time. Every hard drive, optical drive, video card, audio card, usb port almost never would be running at once.

Most likely push will be for hardcore gaming or 3d rendering on one side, or hard drive server for many users perhaps.

General, get UPS that at least match PSU max and you should do ok.

**geno888** · 23-06-2012

Even if the UPS I got is not certainly the most performing, I hope anyway that is not totally crappy

According to the PowerChute software, I should have an estimated battery time of 38 min with my current machine (Intel E8400, mobo socket 775, 4 HDDs): not that bad, even if I suspect that it is not a reliable value. Maybe I have only 10 min before battery can't give energy anymore, sufficient anyway to properly shut down the computer

*Nemesys* · 23-06-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by geno888

Even if the UPS I got is not certainly the most performing, I hope anyway that is not totally crappy

According to the PowerChute software, I should have an estimated battery time of 38 min with my current machine (Intel E8400, mobo socket 775, 4 HDDs): not that bad, even if I suspect that it is not a reliable value. Maybe I have only 10 min before battery can't give energy anymore, sufficient anyway to properly shut down the computer

Is that with the monitor also connected to the UPS?

*G_Ivan Awfulitch* · 23-06-2012

I run two UPS, one for the computer and one for the monitor and other things. We have a lot of power bumps and momentary outages here. there is also a large one on the TV, DVD players and cable box/router. My wife has one on her computer also. When it comes time to replace the batteries it is almost as cheap to catch new UPS on sale and buy new units.

**geno888** · 23-06-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemesys

Is that with the monitor also connected to the UPS?

Yes

That software is pretty useless, it shows basically no information. Some UPS instead have a very informative software, like Belkin for example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by G_Ivan Awfulitch

I run two UPS, one for the computer and one for the monitor and other things. We have a lot of power bumps and momentary outages here. there is also a large one on the TV, DVD players and cable box/router. My wife has one on her computer also. When it comes time to replace the batteries it is almost as cheap to catch new UPS on sale and buy new units.

I was thinking too to put an UPS to the television, but I can't afford it, so I only use a surge protector like this

*Nemesys* · 23-06-2012

Geno,

I've tested the my APC with the system in my signature on several occasions and the software tells the truth (close to it).

The system includes a 27 inch LED monitor as well a a router, switch and cable modem.

UPS is APC RS 1500 LCD running PowerChute v3.0.2.

**geno888** · 23-06-2012

I'm using version 3.0.2 too, but it seems that your UPS provides more information to the software than mine

*Nemesys* · 24-06-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by geno888

I'm using version 3.0.2 too, but it seems that your UPS provides more information to the software than mine

And I would also guess that the Belkin link you posted (1500VA) would be similar.
The bigger the UPS, the more info available. Better communications I guess.

*AllanDeGroot* · 24-06-2012

MY 1300 provides all the same information, so I think "newer" is more important than bigger.

I actually chose the 1300LCD over the 1500 because of price and the fact
that I've never actually seen my computer (Intel Q9300) draw as much as
300w, even when silmutaneously converting three video files to mp4 at once.

My 24" monitor (35w) is included in that total.

And average power useage... say... Like writing and posting this reply? 131Watts

My printer is on the filtered line out of the UPS but is not backed up by the battery.

MY Cable modem, VoIP-Gateway and wireless Router are all backed up by a
seperate UPS, an older APC1700 connected to two deep-cycle
marine batteries, so if my power REALLY goes out (like for days like
it did last year after the Hurricane)
I can run my laptop and still have internet for most of a week
before I have to start up my 250Amp 12Volt gasoline powered
generator to recharge the UPS batteries.

Yes, I am shopping for a couple of 75w solar cells to bridge together for 24v
to "maintain" those marine batteries WITHOUT resorting to the generator

Hell, I even have an APC800 UPS to power whatever computer I'm
testing/setting-up... Why? because having the power fail during
a BIOS Update, even on someone else's computer is something
I'd rather not experience again.

AD

**Seán** · 24-06-2012

The Power Factor and Efficiency plays a major role in what a power supply can draw.

VA = Consumption / Efficiency / Power Factor

For example, if the PC hardware consumes 300 watts from the PSU, the PSU efficiency is 80% and has a power factor of 0.95, this works out as follows:

VA = 300 / 0.8 / 0.95
VA = ~395

Unfortunately, these VA figures really only apply to a UPS that produces a true sign wave. The vast majority of consumer UPS units provide a modified sign wave including in that above review, which means that a power supply that has power factor correction to achieve a power factor of 0.95 may only be able to achieve the reduced power factor caused by the UPS' modified sign wave while on battery. If this is let's say 0.65, then the same 300 watt power draw would work out as follows:

VA = 300 / 0.8 / 0.65
VA = ~577

The power factor also varies from make to make while supplied with a modified side wave, so this is the reason some PSU makes need a much higher UPS VA rating, due to their poor power factor while running on a modified sign wave. So like others mentioned, it is recommended to get a UPS with double the VA figure of the PC's PSU to cover for efficiency and power factor.

Most peripherals such as a monitor, router, external HDD, etc. don't have power factor correction, so their power factor is typically 0.65. So let's say consumption of the additional items is 100 watts, the actual draw would be 154VA even with a pure sign wave UPS. This also needs to be taken into account when deciding on a UPS.

If the equipment does exceed the UPS rating, as long as the power does not fail or fluctuate while this happens, it should not cause a problem. Most UPS' units will beep if its power rating is exceeded or at least display a message in its software if it was a brief surge. However, if the power does go out or go over/under-voltage while the UPS rating is exceeded, generally the UPS will disconnect the output, i.e. act as if it was just a dumb powerstrip.

*debro* · 24-06-2012

Pwm output and a big capacitor ... and they don't include it because it's too expensive

**geno888** · 24-06-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by debro

Pwm output and a big capacitor ... and they don't include it because it's too expensive

I was curious to check some UPS models, and "too expensive" seems an underestimation... some "consumer" products are hugely expensive

*eric93se* · 24-06-2012

I've been using the Cyberpower CP1285AVRLCD for a few years now. I don't use any software with it, the PC usually doesn't run without me around so I would have no trouble shutting it down. Newer UPS's are greener, I made sure I got one that didn't waste power when I got it.

Looks like Cyberpower has an affordable line of Pure Sine Wave UPS's.
Check it out

**geno888** · 25-06-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by eric93se

Looks like Cyberpower has an affordable line of Pure Sine Wave UPS's.
Check it out

Very interesting, thanks. I found some models at Amazon

*AllanDeGroot* · 06-07-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by geno888

I was curious to check some UPS models, and "too expensive" seems an underestimation... some "consumer" products are hugely expensive

Want "expensive"? start pricing commercial models, that gets ugly fast.

My UPS is a commercial model

*Dartman* · 07-07-2012

Hit eBay and hunt around. Quite a long time ago I got a Powerware 1500 va UPS brand new in the box for 156 shipped. It ran for 6 years on the factory batteries before they finally died. It was a true sine wave output model too, just no LCD readout or any of the other cool new features the latest ones have.
I also bought a used APC pro model UPS from a ad on Craigslist for like 40 bucks that still had good batteries in it at the time and managed to get at least 2 years out of it before they went flat so shop around and you might get lucky and find one for less then it costs to replace the batteries.
Lately I've just been buying the cheaper APC ones at the office stores when they decide to disco them cheap as it's cheaper also then buying new batteries for all my older ones that have went bad. The modified sinewave output doesn't seem to bother anything I have run with them yet, including my 34" CRT HDTV, though I'd still rather have a true sinewave model the office stores here usually don't sell them as they are more expensive with less profit margin built in.

**Seán** · 07-07-2012

^ Same thought here with eBay - There is one seller "ups-trader" on eBay that looks very promising for refurbished APC Smart-UPS products, where they install new batteries, spray-paint the cover (if necessary) and run a heavy load test. They claim to offer a 12-month warranty and currently have 100% feedback, despite a feedback count of over 10,000.

They have the APC Smart UPS 1000 with USB for about €154 inc. delivery to Italy (or most other EU countries). Even though this lacks the fancy features of recent APC models, it does have quite a nice GUI, showing a 24-hour voltage graph, load level and so on, as I've seen the Smart UPS 1000 GUI at my workplace.

As for the failing hard disks, I know geno888 uses some hard disks attached externally, such as in an enclosure. I also remember geno888 having DSL connectivity problems which appeared to be caused by the power supply of an external enclosure. So I have am suspicious that an external power supply is causing early failures with his hard disks.

I have seen enough discussions warning not to use cheap PSUs (e.g. <€25) in PCs as they typically have poor voltage regulation/ripples that can cause harm, however, even the best PSU in a PC will do nothing for a HDD attached externally that is powered by a poor quality PSU. If an external enclosure's power supply is the culprit for killing HDDs, then no UPS will do anything to improve it.

**geno888** · 08-07-2012

The enclosure I was referring to was not cheap at all (I bought it 2-3 years ago and I paid it about €40). It is not more available in stores but I never had problems with that enclosure until recently.

That enclosure has an external PSU (see the picture), and Coolermaster is not an "el cheapo" brand. Click on the picture to get the full size

direct link to pic <--- I don't know if it works

21-06-2012	#1
geno888 Senior Moderator, Editor and Guru Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Italy Posts: 29,213	PSU and UPS incompatibility In these days I'm reading a lot of reviews. Just few minutes ago I found something that confused (and scared ) me... it seems that some PSU can be incompatible with UPS. Read here. Now I'm even more confused. Is it possible that I fried so many HDDs because my UPS was not compatible with the PSU??? I never heard about these issues, and actually I didn't understand exactly what is the problem described in that article. Can someone help to understand this thing? __________________ Click here or here to download latest version of CD-DVD Speed Click here to read more about DMA User guide for CD-DVD Speed: English version - Versione Italiana User guide for ImgBurn in BUILD mode English version - Italian version Please do not ask questions via PM. Post in the forum instead. Thanks Per favore, non chiedete consigli o suggerimenti tramite PM. Usate invece il forum (che serve proprio per questo). KTPHTT

21-06-2012	#2
AllanDeGroot MyCE Resident Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,442	Uhhhh... this is a really simple issue. and excuse me if I say it in a somewhat rude way (rudeness directed at the review article's author) It seems these PSU's run a higher input load than other PSU's of similar capacity he's tested. But the reality is that an APC620 really isn't designed to supply that much current for more than a momentary surge load. Basically I'm saying that he bought too small of a UPS a good "Rule of thumb" for UPS selection is to choose one that will supply >twice the peak load of your PSU. HIS UPS will run his computer for about 10min, basically just long enough to save and shut down before the smart UPS reaches it's own emergency shutdown point. My UPS runs the computer long enough to finish whatever I might be doing, then check my e-mail one more time, then shut down manually... if the power hasn't come back on 40min before that thought occours to me... This MIGHT be why when I bought my UPS last year I got an APC 1300. And I only run a stock HP 475w PSU AD __________________ If you become annoyed with an electronic device and soothe the animal side of your nature by smashing it with a hammer some will say that you are ruled by that "animal side", However the Cerebral side that "holds the leash" of your animal side understands the basic reality that once smashed that annoying POS will never irritate you again.... it is only serendipity that you also rid yourself of some repressed rage in the process...

21-06-2012	#3
geno888 Senior Moderator, Editor and Guru Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Italy Posts: 29,213	Thanks for your answer I forgot to mention that this is my UPS, and the PSU is a seasonic S12 II 330W __________________ Click here or here to download latest version of CD-DVD Speed Click here to read more about DMA User guide for CD-DVD Speed: English version - Versione Italiana User guide for ImgBurn in BUILD mode English version - Italian version Please do not ask questions via PM. Post in the forum instead. Thanks Per favore, non chiedete consigli o suggerimenti tramite PM. Usate invece il forum (che serve proprio per questo). KTPHTT

21-06-2012	#6
geno888 Senior Moderator, Editor and Guru Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Italy Posts: 29,213	Indeed I found an example __________________ Click here or here to download latest version of CD-DVD Speed Click here to read more about DMA User guide for CD-DVD Speed: English version - Versione Italiana User guide for ImgBurn in BUILD mode English version - Italian version Please do not ask questions via PM. Post in the forum instead. Thanks Per favore, non chiedete consigli o suggerimenti tramite PM. Usate invece il forum (che serve proprio per questo). KTPHTT

23-06-2012	#8
geno888 Senior Moderator, Editor and Guru Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Italy Posts: 29,213	Even if the UPS I got is not certainly the most performing, I hope anyway that is not totally crappy According to the PowerChute software, I should have an estimated battery time of 38 min with my current machine (Intel E8400, mobo socket 775, 4 HDDs): not that bad, even if I suspect that it is not a reliable value. Maybe I have only 10 min before battery can't give energy anymore, sufficient anyway to properly shut down the computer __________________ Click here or here to download latest version of CD-DVD Speed Click here to read more about DMA User guide for CD-DVD Speed: English version - Versione Italiana User guide for ImgBurn in BUILD mode English version - Italian version Please do not ask questions via PM. Post in the forum instead. Thanks Per favore, non chiedete consigli o suggerimenti tramite PM. Usate invece il forum (che serve proprio per questo). KTPHTT

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21-06-2012	#4
coolcolors MyCE Resident Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 6,497	There some good info I was thinking of next year or this year if finances permit to get a good UPS and now that I have a 750W Antec that mean it has to be at least 1500W ups... wow....wonder if I can afford or get a UPS with that rating??? Guess I have to look carefully....at the rating for the UPS when I go to look at one.

21-06-2012	#5
eric93se MyCE Resident Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,622	There's no question that your UPS should be rated far ahead of your PC's power draw. Apart from power draw there is the fact that the majority of UPS's out there produce a square wave and some PSU's don't like that wave form which leads to another form of incompatibility. To get a UPS that produces a true sin wave will cost at least 4x as much.

22-06-2012	#7
SubZero MyCE Resident Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 543	If at any time your UPS rating is lower than your PSU rating, you may be tempting fate for mission critical needs. Add monitor to PSU requirements for most system, plus any other item on battery plug and under maximum load you may push edges of UPS limitations. Unlike old days though, modern PC's no longer draw max power at boot most times, so likelihood of actually reaching full draw is greatly reduced, since not every single component will likely be taxed at same time. Every hard drive, optical drive, video card, audio card, usb port almost never would be running at once. Most likely push will be for hardcore gaming or 3d rendering on one side, or hard drive server for many users perhaps. General, get UPS that at least match PSU max and you should do ok.

23-06-2012	#10
G_Ivan Awfulitch MyCE Resident Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Cowtown,Texas YeeHawwww Posts: 1,082	I run two UPS, one for the computer and one for the monitor and other things. We have a lot of power bumps and momentary outages here. there is also a large one on the TV, DVD players and cable box/router. My wife has one on her computer also. When it comes time to replace the batteries it is almost as cheap to catch new UPS on sale and buy new units. __________________ It is better to have loved a short, than never have loved a tall! NEW BUILD 10/09 Intel MB BOXDG43NB CPU Slot 775 CPU IntelC2Q Q9650 3G 3.1GHZ Dual-Quad Memory Patriot 4GB 2x2 OS Win 7 Home Premium 64 Bit HDDs 1 Hitachi 640 GB and 1 TB SATA, External 1.5 TB, Two 2TB external and 1 250 GB external fire wire. Burners Internal-Ide Lit-on IHAP 422-98,Pioneer DVR 117---Sata Lite-on IHAS 324-9, Optiarc 7240 and Samsung 243, IHAS 124 Y. External Mad Dog (NEC3500) to burn old 4X media. PSU Antec 550W true power Computers can burn up when shut off if they are still plugged in even when using a UPS. 2nd 'Puter (On line use) Dell Power Edge 700, Pentium 4E 520 Prescott @ 2.8GHz Windows XP Pro SP3 2.5 GB DDR 3200, WD 160GB ATA HD, 4 SCSI HD in raid for 500GB, 250 GB Hd on a firewire port. Samsung 223 DVD burner, Plextor 48/24/48U Printers 1-Canon 820 and 1-Epson R300 6 Usb and 3 Firewire ports in the rear and 10 port powered Rosewill Usb hub in the front along with Rosewill card reader +1 Usb port in the floppy slot 3rd 'Puter Compaq CQ-50 Laptop,Vista 32Bit Celeron 575 @2GHZ, 3GB DDR2 5300, 160GB HD and 1-250GB WD passport HD, 2.6 amp powered USB hub. Optiarc 7200 in external case Epson NX 415 Printer. (Wall-Mart $299) Vista 32 bit

24-06-2012	#15
AllanDeGroot MyCE Resident Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,442	MY 1300 provides all the same information, so I think "newer" is more important than bigger. I actually chose the 1300LCD over the 1500 because of price and the fact that I've never actually seen my computer (Intel Q9300) draw as much as 300w, even when silmutaneously converting three video files to mp4 at once. My 24" monitor (35w) is included in that total. And average power useage... say... Like writing and posting this reply? 131Watts My printer is on the filtered line out of the UPS but is not backed up by the battery. MY Cable modem, VoIP-Gateway and wireless Router are all backed up by a seperate UPS, an older APC1700 connected to two deep-cycle marine batteries, so if my power REALLY goes out (like for days like it did last year after the Hurricane) I can run my laptop and still have internet for most of a week before I have to start up my 250Amp 12Volt gasoline powered generator to recharge the UPS batteries. Yes, I am shopping for a couple of 75w solar cells to bridge together for 24v to "maintain" those marine batteries WITHOUT resorting to the generator Hell, I even have an APC800 UPS to power whatever computer I'm testing/setting-up... Why? because having the power fail during a BIOS Update, even on someone else's computer is something I'd rather not experience again. AD __________________ If you become annoyed with an electronic device and soothe the animal side of your nature by smashing it with a hammer some will say that you are ruled by that "animal side", However the Cerebral side that "holds the leash" of your animal side understands the basic reality that once smashed that annoying POS will never irritate you again.... it is only serendipity that you also rid yourself of some repressed rage in the process...

24-06-2012	#16
Seán Senior Administrator & Reviewer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Republic of Ireland (North West) Posts: 9,654	The Power Factor and Efficiency plays a major role in what a power supply can draw. VA = Consumption / Efficiency / Power Factor For example, if the PC hardware consumes 300 watts from the PSU, the PSU efficiency is 80% and has a power factor of 0.95, this works out as follows: VA = 300 / 0.8 / 0.95 VA = ~395 Unfortunately, these VA figures really only apply to a UPS that produces a true sign wave. The vast majority of consumer UPS units provide a modified sign wave including in that above review, which means that a power supply that has power factor correction to achieve a power factor of 0.95 may only be able to achieve the reduced power factor caused by the UPS' modified sign wave while on battery. If this is let's say 0.65, then the same 300 watt power draw would work out as follows: VA = 300 / 0.8 / 0.65 VA = ~577 The power factor also varies from make to make while supplied with a modified side wave, so this is the reason some PSU makes need a much higher UPS VA rating, due to their poor power factor while running on a modified sign wave. So like others mentioned, it is recommended to get a UPS with double the VA figure of the PC's PSU to cover for efficiency and power factor. Most peripherals such as a monitor, router, external HDD, etc. don't have power factor correction, so their power factor is typically 0.65. So let's say consumption of the additional items is 100 watts, the actual draw would be 154VA even with a pure sign wave UPS. This also needs to be taken into account when deciding on a UPS. If the equipment does exceed the UPS rating, as long as the power does not fail or fluctuate while this happens, it should not cause a problem. Most UPS' units will beep if its power rating is exceeded or at least display a message in its software if it was a brief surge. However, if the power does go out or go over/under-voltage while the UPS rating is exceeded, generally the UPS will disconnect the output, i.e. act as if it was just a dumb powerstrip.

24-06-2012	#17
debro Blown to smitherines Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: Between the CDFreaks Orange and Blue Portals Posts: 13,338	Pwm output and a big capacitor ... and they don't include it because it's too expensive __________________ / ----- I remember when all this will happen again -----/ You will be baked ... and there will be cake ... you monster. Click here to still be alive! Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. --Terry Pratchett Primary PC: 1.4Ghz Quad Core Cortex A9, 2048MB Ram, Mali 400 video, 32GB Primary, 64Gb Secondary, 802.11N 2.4/5Ghz, 1280x800@10.1" with one years supply of Jelly Beans Secondary PC: i7-Q720@1.6Ghz, 4GB, 500GB Hybrid HDD, Win7 x64 BusPre, Ati HD5470M-1GB, backlit keyboard. Tertiary PC: Amd Phenom II 945, 4GB DDR2, 120GB Vertex 2, AMD HD7850(OC) 2GB , Win8 Pro, 24" 1920x1200, cordless keyboard + mouse + gaming mouse.

07-07-2012	#22
Dartman MyCE Resident Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USA Posts: 1,775	Hit eBay and hunt around. Quite a long time ago I got a Powerware 1500 va UPS brand new in the box for 156 shipped. It ran for 6 years on the factory batteries before they finally died. It was a true sine wave output model too, just no LCD readout or any of the other cool new features the latest ones have. I also bought a used APC pro model UPS from a ad on Craigslist for like 40 bucks that still had good batteries in it at the time and managed to get at least 2 years out of it before they went flat so shop around and you might get lucky and find one for less then it costs to replace the batteries. Lately I've just been buying the cheaper APC ones at the office stores when they decide to disco them cheap as it's cheaper also then buying new batteries for all my older ones that have went bad. The modified sinewave output doesn't seem to bother anything I have run with them yet, including my 34" CRT HDTV, though I'd still rather have a true sinewave model the office stores here usually don't sell them as they are more expensive with less profit margin built in.

08-07-2012	#24
geno888 Senior Moderator, Editor and Guru Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Italy Posts: 29,213	The enclosure I was referring to was not cheap at all (I bought it 2-3 years ago and I paid it about €40). It is not more available in stores but I never had problems with that enclosure until recently. That enclosure has an external PSU (see the picture), and Coolermaster is not an "el cheapo" brand. Click on the picture to get the full size direct link to pic <--- I don't know if it works __________________ Click here or here to download latest version of CD-DVD Speed Click here to read more about DMA User guide for CD-DVD Speed: English version - Versione Italiana User guide for ImgBurn in BUILD mode English version - Italian version Please do not ask questions via PM. Post in the forum instead. Thanks Per favore, non chiedete consigli o suggerimenti tramite PM. Usate invece il forum (che serve proprio per questo). KTPHTT

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