Old 20-06-2003   #1
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Forced Subtitles

Hi Guys
I am a newbie to the list but am reasonably competetent with computers and burning but I am having a problem which is driving me totally mad. It is to do with the forced subtitles which are used in films such as "The sum of All Fears and also The Hunt for Red October". The subtitles are translations of the russian being spoken by the actors. I have decripted the film only files from the original DVD's and then used DVD2one V1.1.3. I select the film only, 6ch sound, and all the english subtitles. If I then burn using CopytoDVD it runs great but I have to manually select the subtitle stream to enable the forced subtitles to appear. These appear on the original without any user intervention. Why the difference? I have tried to copy the stream which contains the forced subtitle only but it still doesn't work. I have trawled the faq, and all the previous thread histories and have tried all the suggested options but to no avail. I have tried the modifications to the ifo files but nothing seems to work. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 20-06-2003   #2
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Try selecting All subtitles (they don't take up much space anyway) and let me know what happens then.

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Old 20-06-2003   #3
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Forced Subtitles

It doesent seem to make any difference. Any ideas how to identify which stream contains the forced subtitles without viewing the entire movie and physically trying them all? :-) If I can do this at least I can make a note in the title sleeve which stream to have switched on when viewing.
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Old 20-06-2003   #4
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Hey--I sure would like a feature/sub-program for D2O movie-only that would identify the forced-sub-only and insert/enable just that!
I know subs are small, but it bugs me to include English on my copies when they may or may not even be useful (also, on some players it _really_ bugs people to have to enter 'subs-off' on the remote on viewing copies...). Many players won't let you really disable dvd-r subs in their Set-Ups...
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Old 21-06-2003   #5
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Re: Forced Subtitles

Quote:
Originally posted by Dunkeld
Hi Guys
I am a newbie to the list but am reasonably competetent with computers and burning but I am having a problem which is driving me totally mad. It is to do with the forced subtitles which are used in films such as "The sum of All Fears and also The Hunt for Red October". The subtitles are translations of the russian being spoken by the actors.
did you ever hear off "burned in subtitles"? it seams not these subtitles are in the film and not in a subtitle stream. lord of the rings got them also and some star trek film too. you can do nothing about it.
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Old 21-06-2003   #6
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Quote:
did you ever hear off "burned in subtitles"? it seams not these subtitles are in the film and not in a subtitle stream. lord of the rings got them also and some star trek film too. you can do nothing about it.
I think he's referring to forced subtitles that are not part of the film itself, but text that displays during translations or opening scenes (Star Wars, Episode 1 & II for example).
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Old 21-06-2003   #7
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I've been having problems with forced subtitles as well. Just transcoded Die Another Day. I had to try each english subtitle one at a time until I stumbled onto the forced subtitles. When I selected all english subtitles, the forced subtitle apparently "lost" its forced characteristic (and no subtitles showed on playback by default).

It seems to me that when copying, forced subtitles should be copied by default.

At a minimum, it seems critical that there is some way of identifying a forced subtitle within the subtitle selection area.

Right now, I have to play the movie, looking for subtitles, then after ripping & transcoding, I have to transcode for each english subtitle and then play each one looking for the subtitles that I saw when playing the original. YUK.
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Old 22-06-2003   #8
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That can be a pain. It would be a great feature for DVD2One (if it can be implemented somewhow). We should start a thread with details about which correct subtitle to select for user's that don't want to waste time shooting in the dark. I'm still trying to figure out which English subtitles to select in order to get the forced subs in SW: Ep. II.
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Old 22-06-2003   #9
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This whole sub and forced-sub thing is something I'd love to hear something definitive about.
I've participated in other discussions about the need for inclusion of the English sub (in an English movie, of course). I've encountered a few flics that require the English sub if a translation/sub-title is to pop-up (but only a couple). In general, I've been informed that 'subs are small--throw it in to be safe'--so if I don't know for sure whether the movie needs such, I include the Eng. sub by default (except when identified as 'closed caption').
But I do wish someone with access to published Standards could speak to this whole issue of insuring that sub-titles normally seen in theatrical presentations (in the US--usually translations of a brief foriegn line/speech/document) are present in movie-only copies. If Eng. subs are only rarely (or never) needed, I'd prefer not including them...
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Old 23-06-2003   #10
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Forced Subtitles

Hi Guys
thanks for replying, it appears that I am not the only one having problems with this issue. I don't know if it is possible but if in the next version of DVD2one, it could indicate what type of subtitle was which in the selection screen prior to compression, that may do the trick I am going to keep trawling and if I come up with anything else I will report back!
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Old 23-06-2003   #11
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Re: Forced Subtitles

Quote:
Originally posted by Dunkeld
Hi Guys
thanks for replying, it appears that I am not the only one having problems with this issue. I don't know if it is possible but if in the next version of DVD2one, it could indicate what type of subtitle was which in the selection screen prior to compression, that may do the trick I am going to keep trawling and if I come up with anything else I will report back!
and...
"It would be a great feature for DVD2One (if it can be implemented somewhow). We should start a thread with details about which correct subtitle to select for user's that don't want to waste time shooting in the dark."

So--make this that thread.
I've read widely, in many different forums, and there is huge conflict of opinion. It's one of those things where one can't decide 'who to trust' for the low-down.
What makes for a Forced-Sub? Is there a flag that can be searched for in any utility? Or are the 'Presentation Subtitles' needed actually burned into the video of 99.9% of English movies?
I'd be satisfied to keep this overall question focused on Movie-Only copies (Full seems to open a different set of problems...).
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Old 23-06-2003   #12
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I don't think the problem of forced subtitles comes from D2O because i don't have prob. with it.

But, and not least, i'm a mac user and i think the prob. is the soft you use to rip.

I'm using DVDBackup 1.3 to rip and D2Ox to compress and everything is OK with many standalones without particular setting.

Try another rip method and be sure of one thing: D2O (X or Win) is not responsible of all prob. you can have with your PC.

Try a mac if your PC don't work correctly...

Olivier
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Old 23-06-2003   #13
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Quote:
I don't think the problem of forced subtitles comes from D2O because i don't have prob. with it. Try a mac if your PC don't work correctly...
I like your sense of humor. Have you compressed many movies that have forced subtitles? Which English stream did you pick for Star Wars: Episode 1?
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Old 23-06-2003   #14
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"Try a mac if your PC don't work correctly... "
For counter-point? [Like try being homeless for a day if your life fails to fulfill?]
My PC's work fine--just bandying about choices here (which is what PC's offer!).
DVDD>D2O work great for movie-only, but I'd like to skip including English subs if they are never required for Presentation-accurate copies.
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Old 23-06-2003   #15
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Thankfully forced subtitles are not forced any more!

@Erwin:

PLEASE DON'T IMPLEMENT AUTOMATIC TAKING OVER OF FORCED SUBTITLES !!!

I bought "Pulp Fiction" some years back. You are forced to view the movie with German subtitles if you choose the English sound track, due to copyright issues

Since I copied this movie with DVD2One, I can watch the English version without subs

cu
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Old 23-06-2003   #16
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"You are forced to view the movie with German subtitles if you choose the English sound track, due to copyright issues"

???

!
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Old 23-06-2003   #17
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Yes I have. Due to copyright issues according to the DVD cover.
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Old 23-06-2003   #18
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And this DVD is Region1--purchased in the US?
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Old 23-06-2003   #19
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Of course not. It's Region 2. Bought it in LIDL, Germany.
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Old 23-06-2003   #20
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And indeed there where more DVD's with the same issue. Also some french versions with exactly the same stupid feature float around.

It was done to prevent selling of those dvd's in other countries because of the low pricing of those particulair movies.
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Old 24-06-2003   #21
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So, ReneB, can you go on record and say whether or not an English sub is _ever_ required for an English movie (region 1) movie-only copy in order to display needed (seen during US theatrical presentations) subs during playback?
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Old 24-06-2003   #22
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I'll go on record!

For Die Another Day, you need to select the 2nd (if I remember correctly) english subtitle.

Check the major scene changes (like when you first see the military compound) - the location is identified with a subtitle. Also, check the scene where the korean guy beats the crap out of one of his men in a punching bag (early in the movie). When speaking in korean, the english subtitles are displayed. Also other places in the movie.

If you don't select the correct subtitle, you're hosed.

I tried selecting ALL english subtitles (there are 3) and the forced subtitles didn't display as forced any longer.

So basically, you need to choose one subtitle at a time and watch the resultant movie to see if you picked the correct one.

Actually, it's even worse than that because you need to watch the movie first to determine if subtitles are even used and find a spot in the movie that you can check to see if the forced subtitles are visible.

Since some movies don't use subtitles, you also have to figure out if the subtitles are just printed into the video, or are actually forced subtitles.

This is REALLY bad.
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Old 24-06-2003   #23
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Wow--that does sound bad...
I just do movie-only, and accept the already highlighted Files with DVDD 3.1.4.0, then when I process, there is only one English sub to select...
Guess I'll stay with that instead of worrying the lost space for a sub. I sure don't want to go through all of the above on a regular basis!
Maybe the best remaining obstacle for me to free some space for main-movie is to find an easy way to cut most of the title?
Thanks for sub-info, btw.
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Old 27-06-2003   #24
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Here's another datapoint.

Copying Dances with Wolves - Movie only mode.

Forced subtitles often used for indians speaking.

There are 2 english subtitle tracks (and no other languages). I tried the first, the second, and both together.

In all 3 cases, the "forced" attribute was lost in the conversion.

It appears that in this case, the only way to keep the forced subtitle (using DVD2one) is to do a full disc copy. There aren't any extras anyway, so this shouldn't be too bad. (It will pick up an additional soundtrack [or 2?] though. This is a bit of a bummer since this is a very long movie and those extra bytes might make a difference.)

I would think that this should be considered a BUG as the forced attribute is not maintained even when the forced subtitles are selected.
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Old 27-06-2003   #25
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This is interesting.
I noted on another forum that one of the 'acknowledged bugs' of DVDShink is that closed captions are lost somewhere in the transcoding process.
I wonder if the two problems are related and are in fact part and parcel of the way all these transcoders work.

-P
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