Cinavia protection on Blu-Ray discs finally broken?

**Liggy** · 22-09-2012

I just posted the article Cinavia protection finally broken?.

Quote:

Software developer Pixbytes claim to have broken the Cinavia protection that prevents playback of protected Blu-Rays and DVDs on certain Blu-Ray players by incorporating a watermark that is checked against a key which is part of the AACS protection.

Click to read the full article here: http://www.myce.com/news/cinavia-pro...-broken-63939/

Feel free to add your comments below.

Please note that the reactions from the complete site will be synched below.

**Wombler** · 22-09-2012

That is awesome news and looks like it will lead to a full solution once they've tweaked it.

I wonder if this is completely non-destructive to the audio though?

Wombler

**Liggy** · 22-09-2012

I think the solution cannot be non-destructive, as even Cinavia itself isn't non-destructive. It has to change (destruct) the audio stream in order to add the watermark. However the question is not whether it is destructive or not, but rather if it is possible to hear the difference between the original soundtrack and the modified one.

Found a nice (old) article on audio watermarks today, perhaps it's worth reading this one.

**Wombler** · 22-09-2012

Yeah that's a good article.

I'd read that before when researching Cinavia and the likelihood of it being defeated.

IIRC the key difference between these challenges and the Cinavia problem is that no untouched versions of the Cinavia infected audio are available for comparison.

Interesting stuff though and TBH some of the mathematics involved is a bit beyond my limits.

Wombler

*tmc8080* · 22-09-2012

Most copy protections work in obscurity.. once people understand how they work, methods can be developed to defeat them. You also can't put it past this nasty blu ray consortium to use "connected" blu ray players to phone home over the internet if they detect "copied" mediums of which the copyrights/watermarks have been tampered with..

Isn't it just better to stream content via a HTPC or meida box dedicated for this purpose?

**Liggy** · 22-09-2012

I have to admit that I still prefer physical discs (DVD or Blu-Ray) over mpeg, mp4 or mkv files. DVD and Blu-Ray is something you can play on almost every machine, while I've already seen several incompatibilities of other formats on certain devices like MKV file can be played - sound is missing.

*coolcolors* · 22-09-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liggy

I have to admit that I still prefer physical discs (DVD or Blu-Ray) over mpeg, mp4 or mkv files. DVD and Blu-Ray is something you can play on almost every machine, while I've already seen several incompatibilities of other formats on certain devices like MKV file can be played - sound is missing.

I am with you here the physical medium is good to have and one can do as they like once they have it and store it or backup much times as needed preserving the original from damage.

*CDan* · 22-09-2012

If you're playing shiny discs, then Cinavia is of no concern to you unless those discs are recordable.

**alan1476** · 23-09-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDan

If you're playing shiny discs, then Cinavia is of no concern to you unless those discs are recordable.

Finally someone put this in perspective. Thanks CDan.

*debro* · 23-09-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDan

If you're playing shiny discs, then Cinavia is of no concern to you unless those discs are recordable.

But if you're trying to make a backup so that your children don't destroy the original of their favourite kids show, cinavia ensures that you're totally f@#$%d.

*CDan* · 23-09-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by debro

But if you're trying to make a backup so that your children don't destroy the original of their favourite kids show, cinavia ensures that you're totally f@#$%d.

Not necessarily, there are ways around it. It all depends on the player in use. Its FAR too early in the game to make blanket assumptions. Once more players show up that are Cinavia enabled, there will be some reliable data. At present it is possible to rip and avoid issues with Cinavia infected content on some players. Or, just keep a pre-2012 player around that has no Cinavia decoding.

Cinavia is not the apocalypse, it's just another protection to be worked around.

FreqNasty_RiseS · 23-09-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liggy

I have to admit that I still prefer physical discs (DVD or Blu-Ray) over mpeg, mp4 or mkv files. DVD and Blu-Ray is something you can play on almost every machine, while I've already seen several incompatibilities of other formats on certain devices like MKV file can be played - sound is missing.

@Liggy,

Now that Optiarc is leaving the optical drive business, what does the future hold for you? Shift your attention to firmware mods on another brand? Or possibly something more extreme, like a move into console hacking, apple device jail breaking etc?

FreqNasty_RiseS · 23-09-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by debro

But if you're trying to make a backup so that your children don't destroy the original of their favourite kids show, cinavia ensures that you're totally f@#$%d.

As the movie companies would suggest, buying another copy of the movie will ensure you have a backup in the event of a disaster

**Liggy** · 23-09-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreqNasty_RiseS

Now that Optiarc is leaving the optical drive business, what does the future hold for you? Shift your attention to firmware mods on another brand? Or possibly something more extreme, like a move into console hacking, apple device jail breaking etc?

Probably nothing of the above. I often didn't even find much time to do the firmware patching and my skills are far away from being good enough to shift to some even more complicated hacking. But that's a little off-topic here

**Wombler** · 23-09-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDan

Not necessarily, there are ways around it. It all depends on the player in use. Its FAR too early in the game to make blanket assumptions. Once more players show up that are Cinavia enabled, there will be some reliable data. At present it is possible to rip and avoid issues with Cinavia infected content on some players. Or, just keep a pre-2012 player around that has no Cinavia decoding.

Cinavia is not the apocalypse, it's just another protection to be worked around.

I'm lucky enough to have a player that isn't capable of supporting Cinavia and will therefore remain immune but that's not a future proof solution as I'll eventually want to upgrade or probably even sooner buy another player for another room in the house.

I'd rather not be left in the future with a pile of expensive backups that won't play on a newer player, so even though I'm not currently affected, removing Cinavia seems like a pretty good idea to me.

Wombler

*CDan* · 23-09-2012

It's also good to note that only a minority of titles have Cinavia protection. Currently only Sony is using it extensively and most studios are avoiding it due to its cost. Warner has released a few. Other studios like Lionsgate are investing in other copy protections. Ultimately the bottom line will drive studios toward or away from Cinavia, so one can always vote with one's wallet.

FreqNasty_RiseS · 23-09-2012

Cinavia took 10 years to develop but far less time to break.

**Wombler** · 23-09-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreqNasty_RiseS

Cinavia took 10 years to develop but far less time to break.

True but it's taking longer and longer to break evermore sophisticated protection systems.

Also it remains to be seen if new Cinavia variants will appear that beat this currently proposed solution.

It's still a major breakthough though and will hopefully have broken this protection for good.

Wombler

ChristineBCW · 23-09-2012

Freq, it reminds me of King George's stamp tax, meant to raise about $20k. The colonists boycotted British ships and quickly cost the King's coffers about $100k. The Parliament, under the wise advise of merchants, repealed the stamp tax. King G did it again, and the same results, only quicker and steaper losses resulted. Again, the Parliament repealed it. On the third try, the King sent troops into the colonies to force new taxes. This added at least $50k a year to the project, and by 1781, the King had spent several hundred thousand, lost thousands of lives, was ridiculed by the French, Dutch and Spanish, and lost his colonies, too. All for $20k - way to stay focused, Kingie.

Tuchman's THE MARCH OF FOLLY has a lot more. I have to wonder when FollyWare will become the latest genre.

**Wombler** · 23-09-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDan

It's also good to note that only a minority of titles have Cinavia protection. Currently only Sony is using it extensively and most studios are avoiding it due to its cost. Warner has released a few. Other studios like Lionsgate are investing in other copy protections. Ultimately the bottom line will drive studios toward or away from Cinavia, so one can always vote with one's wallet.

Plus if Cinavia has been broken then other studios won't buy into that technology anyway.

Wombler

**Liggy** · 24-09-2012

Plus if one company managed to break this protection, others should be able to find out how they did it and implement this in their own products.

My guess is that they cannot actually remove the bits inserted by Cinavia, but just add further bits, confusing the Cinavia detection mechanism.

*tmc8080* · 24-09-2012

A tablet with HDMI output, or a SMART streaming HDTV, FTW!
Most new equipment will be network streaming very soon if not already.. I like my disc media for data backups as much as the next person... for Video? It seems ancient.. I'll use a rewritable once in a blue moon, but regularly? nah..

ChristineBCW · 24-09-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreqNasty_RiseS

...buying another copy of the movie will ensure...

...that more original copies can be lost, stolen, damaged! I still prefer using the copy and storing the master.

Buying 2 originals won't guarantee loss, of course. And we've seen so many titles go 'out of print' that studios definitely won't guarantee we can buy a future copy.

At least Disney is upfront about this - "On sale for 6 months, then maybe in a few years, this title will return to market." They achieve two goals - one, they force quicker sales and reduced inventory-time, and they reduce inventory space, overall, freeing up shelf space for their next line of titles.

We still have several hundred commercial VHS tapes that were never put on out DVD or, perhaps worse, more edited versions on DVD than the original VHS offerings. But this also occurred with the original LaserDisc offerings - if titles are produced onto future media supplies, consumers have no guarantees of anything. "Do it ourselves" seems to be the best choice.

*roadworker* · 24-09-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristineBCW

"Do it ourselves" seems to be the best choice.

Indeed!

And most of times,with the right tools,we can make the backup to our taste......

**Wombler** · 24-09-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liggy

My guess is that they cannot actually remove the bits inserted by Cinavia, but just add further bits, confusing the Cinavia detection mechanism.

I would suspect that you're probably right there Liggy as even the standalones don't have routines that actually remove Cinavia they just play the audio with the Cinavia signature included.

It may be indeed therefore be impossible to remove but possible to circumvent triggering of its activation routines.

That would be another slight degradation in the audio quality but hopefully it's still unnoticable.

Wombler

22-09-2012	#2
Wombler Administrator & Reviewer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 9,660	That is awesome news and looks like it will lead to a full solution once they've tweaked it. I wonder if this is completely non-destructive to the audio though? Wombler __________________ ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ Forum Help: Forum Rules, MyCE Help Centre If you find these forums useful then: Register Here DVDFab/ImgBurn: Choosing the correct Layer Break Position in ImgBurn DVDFab: BDMV-REC Supported Burners Reviews: Ideal DVD Copy, Magic DVD Copier, DVDFab DVD Copy v9

22-09-2012	#3
Liggy Senior Administrator Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Monkey Island Posts: 8,240	I think the solution cannot be non-destructive, as even Cinavia itself isn't non-destructive. It has to change (destruct) the audio stream in order to add the watermark. However the question is not whether it is destructive or not, but rather if it is possible to hear the difference between the original soundtrack and the modified one. Found a nice (old) article on audio watermarks today, perhaps it's worth reading this one. __________________ You need to flash or dump your NEC DVD burner firmwares on your Mac, Windows, DOS or Linux machine? Just try Binflash. Visit Liggy's and Dee's Optiarc and NEC firmware and tools page for all kind of information about NEC and Optiarc drives. Unrequested PM about drive problems will not be answered!

22-09-2012	#4
Wombler Administrator & Reviewer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 9,660	Yeah that's a good article. I'd read that before when researching Cinavia and the likelihood of it being defeated. IIRC the key difference between these challenges and the Cinavia problem is that no untouched versions of the Cinavia infected audio are available for comparison. Interesting stuff though and TBH some of the mathematics involved is a bit beyond my limits. Wombler __________________ ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ Forum Help: Forum Rules, MyCE Help Centre If you find these forums useful then: Register Here DVDFab/ImgBurn: Choosing the correct Layer Break Position in ImgBurn DVDFab: BDMV-REC Supported Burners Reviews: Ideal DVD Copy, Magic DVD Copier, DVDFab DVD Copy v9

22-09-2012	#6
Liggy Senior Administrator Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Monkey Island Posts: 8,240	I have to admit that I still prefer physical discs (DVD or Blu-Ray) over mpeg, mp4 or mkv files. DVD and Blu-Ray is something you can play on almost every machine, while I've already seen several incompatibilities of other formats on certain devices like MKV file can be played - sound is missing. __________________ You need to flash or dump your NEC DVD burner firmwares on your Mac, Windows, DOS or Linux machine? Just try Binflash. Visit Liggy's and Dee's Optiarc and NEC firmware and tools page for all kind of information about NEC and Optiarc drives. Unrequested PM about drive problems will not be answered!

24-09-2012	#21
Liggy Senior Administrator Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Monkey Island Posts: 8,240	Plus if one company managed to break this protection, others should be able to find out how they did it and implement this in their own products. My guess is that they cannot actually remove the bits inserted by Cinavia, but just add further bits, confusing the Cinavia detection mechanism. __________________ You need to flash or dump your NEC DVD burner firmwares on your Mac, Windows, DOS or Linux machine? Just try Binflash. Visit Liggy's and Dee's Optiarc and NEC firmware and tools page for all kind of information about NEC and Optiarc drives. Unrequested PM about drive problems will not be answered!

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22-09-2012	#5
tmc8080 MyCE Resident Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 980	Most copy protections work in obscurity.. once people understand how they work, methods can be developed to defeat them. You also can't put it past this nasty blu ray consortium to use "connected" blu ray players to phone home over the internet if they detect "copied" mediums of which the copyrights/watermarks have been tampered with.. Isn't it just better to stream content via a HTPC or meida box dedicated for this purpose?

22-09-2012	#8
CDan MyCE Resident Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Posts: 3,920	If you're playing shiny discs, then Cinavia is of no concern to you unless those discs are recordable.

23-09-2012	#16
CDan MyCE Resident Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Posts: 3,920	It's also good to note that only a minority of titles have Cinavia protection. Currently only Sony is using it extensively and most studios are avoiding it due to its cost. Warner has released a few. Other studios like Lionsgate are investing in other copy protections. Ultimately the bottom line will drive studios toward or away from Cinavia, so one can always vote with one's wallet.

23-09-2012	#17
FreqNasty_RiseS MyCE Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 166	Cinavia took 10 years to develop but far less time to break.

23-09-2012	#19
ChristineBCW MyCE Die Hard Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: USA-Canada Posts: 1,351	Freq, it reminds me of King George's stamp tax, meant to raise about $20k. The colonists boycotted British ships and quickly cost the King's coffers about $100k. The Parliament, under the wise advise of merchants, repealed the stamp tax. King G did it again, and the same results, only quicker and steaper losses resulted. Again, the Parliament repealed it. On the third try, the King sent troops into the colonies to force new taxes. This added at least $50k a year to the project, and by 1781, the King had spent several hundred thousand, lost thousands of lives, was ridiculed by the French, Dutch and Spanish, and lost his colonies, too. All for $20k - way to stay focused, Kingie. Tuchman's THE MARCH OF FOLLY has a lot more. I have to wonder when FollyWare will become the latest genre.

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