The truth about DVD RW Media, MID codes and Firmwares: beware of cheap media !

Marco BTC · 23-10-2003

DVD MEDIA ARE HOT !
DVD recordable and rewritable media are hot ! This week the 2 billionth (2.000.000.000) DVD R(W) (or /RAM) disc will be sold somewhere in the world. It took the industry around 6 years to get to this 2B mark. In the coming year, however, it is expected that another 1.5 Billion media will be sold !

Naturally, a lot of companies are gearing up their production lines to be able to get a piece of this huge market. Beside the first tier media manufacturers like Ritek, CMC, Ricoh, Mitsubishi Chemical, Infodisc, Optodisc, etc. and lesser known brands like Princo, Skymedia, etc. a lot of unknown, mostly Asian or Eastern European media are expected to hit the market. The origins and quality of these media is often unknown.

MID CODES
All the major manufacturers use socalled Manufacturer ID (MID) codes, which are like digital signatures imprinted into the media, which make it possible to trace the origin of the disc and the characteristics of the recordable/rewritable layer.

Because of the different characteristics, each type of media requires a different approach when burning data. Especially the laser power is important: too much power may destroy the recordable/rewritable layer, but too little power may result in unreadable data as well.

FIRMWARES AND MEDIA COMPATIBILITY
In order to make sure that a DVD RW drive works well with a certain media, it is important for every drive manufacturer to tune the firmware of their drive to each type of media. As soon as the media is inserted into the drive, the MID code is read and according to a MID code list in the firmware, the drive knows exactly what burning characteristics (laser power, etc.) should be used with this particular media. Because of the current wave of new media from all major manufacturers, new MID codes are released almost weekly, forcing the drive manufacturers to update their firmwares regularly.

BEWARE OF CHEAP MEDIA
The problem with most media is that, unless you buy media from a wellknown brand name such as TDK, Verbatim, Panasonic, etc. you can't really tell what you bought until you've tried it on your DVD RW drive.

Many unknown companies (mostly small Asian or Eastern European) who are in the business of producing media only for the easy money, take advantage of this fact by luring customers into buying their media by offering extremely low prices. Because the MID code can also be used to trace media back to the manufacturer, they often don't use any MID code and rumor has it that some companies even "steal" MID codes from other manufacturers, making it look like the discs are made by reliable companies.

The 1st problem with this type of media is that the quality may be unreliable, though this is not necessarily the case.

The 2nd problem is that your drive may be incompatible with this media, at least until the drive manufacturer has become aware of the existence and characteristics of those media and has gone through the trouble of locating, purchasing and tuning a new firmware.

Most drive manufacturers keep close contact with all the wellknown media manufacturers to make sure their drives can support all the media that are manufactured by them.

It's an almost impossible job to keep track of all these small media companies, however, who in some cases don't even want to be found in the first place ! In these cases, if a drive manufacturer wants to support these media, the response will have to come from the endusers who buy these media and alert the drive manufacturer about the existence of those media.

Marco
BTC Europe Support

*dakhaas* · 24-10-2003

Stolen Mid codes have been reported by TDK (Princo stole these in the begining.PRinco no has it's own code. BUt disc quality is very poor) & Maxell.(Also the stolen one is of very poor quality)

*lapinou* · 25-10-2003

which tools are able to read information for the media.. something simple we could suggest to our customers ?
media quality is really painfull source of support as the firmware issues ... thanks for this article.

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*AZImmortal* · 25-10-2003

dvdinfopro provides a lot of information on media, including their MID.

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*dhc014* · 25-10-2003

DVD Identifier (freeware) works too: http://dvd.identifier.cdfreaks.com/

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WebTech Inc · 26-10-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Marco BTC
..........a lot of unknown, mostly Asian or Eastern European media
are expected to hit the market. The origins and quality of these
media is often unknown.

Many unknown companies (mostly small Asian or Eastern European)
who are in the business of producing media only for the easy money, ......

As I've never heard of any East European company that produces
CD-Rs and/or DVDs ......

Could you please post some of these companies and what media
they produce. Thanx

Andy

Marco BTC · 27-10-2003

Andy,

Honestly speaking I haven't seen any media from Eastern Europe myself either, but I've heard some rumors, and it makes sense.

Nowadays Eastern Europe is taking over a lot of economic activities, both legal and illegal, that is similar to what has been happening in (South-)East Asia over the last few decades.

Marco
BTC Europe Support

Marco BTC · 27-10-2003

A new official release of the DRW1004's firmware is now available. V0043 will be available for download from the BTC website before the end of this week and is already available on request by contacting support@btceurope.nl

Please make the subject of your e-mail as follows:
Request for DRW1004 V0043 Firmware
so we can manage these requests faster !

The firmware will also be sent to this website's webmaster.

Tks.

Marco
BTC Europe Support

*lapinou* · 27-10-2003

Hi Marco,

sorry I don't do this request via a private message, but you can reply in private. Is BTC has a policy to help software developer ? giving command list, sample of the drives etc...

I have to confess we have some mixed results with manufacturors. Some are really efficient and kind.. some refuses to reply .. and we have to confess that the dvd recorder drives are really strange to support.. between the media issues, strong command behaviour, finalization etc.. none of the drive we are using for developments works the same : sanyo, pioneer, sony, plextor...

but to be honest at VSO we don't have BTC drives... not well distributed in France.

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Marco BTC · 27-10-2003

Iapinou,

Currently in France you can buy our drives at MediaMarkt, Auchan, Carrefour, etc.

Please send me a mail to support@btceurope.nl with information on what kind of information you need to support our drive.

It's in both companies' interest if our drive can support your software, so I will discuss with my colleagues in Taiwan how to best support you.

Marco
BTC Europe Support

*spath* · 27-10-2003

> In order to make sure that a DVD RW drive works well with a certain media, it
> is important for every drive manufacturer to tune the firmware of their drive
> to each type of media. As soon as the media is inserted into the drive, the
> MID code is read and according to a MID code list in the firmware, the drive
> knows exactly what burning characteristics (laser power, etc.) should be used
> with this particular media.

That's not completely true. A drive has two more sources of information about
burning settings other than its own internal database. First, the ADIP/LPP
carry detailed informations about the write strategy (including laser power)
for different burning speeds. Second, the drive performs an OPC before burning
data and can therefore practically find the best settings for a particular media
by burning/read back cycles. So as far as a disc is correctly manufactured any
drive should be able to burn it even if it's not in its firmware database.

Marco BTC · 28-10-2003

Theoretically, you are right.

But in reality, it doesn't work (well enough, anyway).

If it would work properly, we'd only have to write a firmware once and never have to update it. Wouldn't that be great for all of us......

Also, we'd never have to publish a media compatibility list, because all the media would just work, all the time.

Yet Plextor, Lite-On, Asus, Optorite, they all update their firmwares to add new media compatibility and they all publish their media compatibility lists.

Marco
BTC Europe Support

*spath* · 28-10-2003

Before you start explaining me what is theory and reality you
should know that I'm working at a drive manufacturer R&D.

> Theoretically, you are right.
>
> But in reality, it doesn't work (well enough, anyway).

Really ? So are you saying that BTC drives ignore ADIP/LPP
info and don't use OPC ?

> If it would work properly, we'd only have to write a
> firmware once and never have to update it. Wouldn't that
> be great for all of us......

Nope, some settings are better stored in the firmware. But a
single disc can also have different physical properties than
those of the same brand you used to define the settings you
store, thus the interest of OPC and practical measures.

> Also, we'd never have to publish a media compatibility
> list, because all the media would just work, all the time.

Sure, and on the other hand if the settings stored in the
firmware were really mandatory to burn a disc, a drive could
not write any brand outside of its compatibility list. These
settings are nice to have but they are not absolutely required.

> Yet Plextor, Lite-On, Asus, Optorite, they all update their
> firmwares to add new media compatibility and they all
> publish their media compatibility lists.

And yet they still can burn discs from many other brands, right ?

To be clear :

1) These lists are recommended media which will give best results
with the corresponding drives thanks to specific settings, but
they are in no way an exhaustive list of what the manufacturer
guarantees its burner can write.

2) The reason is simple : we don't sell Verbatim+CMC+RICOH discs
burners, we sell DVD+R burners, and therefore we should be able
to burn everything that complies with the DVD+R specification.
That's the whole point of having a standard.

3) If a drive cannot burn a disc which is not in its firmware
database but perfectly within the specs, then it's the fault
of the drive manufacturer and not the one of the disc manufacturer
(and certainly not the fault of the user who bought these discs).

*OC-Freak* · 28-10-2003

I've been able to write to several discs not directly supported in the firmware of my PX-708A without problems.

For example:

INFOSMART01 and AN31, both 4X media.

Both works using the general media support in the plextor......

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rctech · 29-10-2003

I have a new Micro Advantage superdrive multiformat DVD burner. It's the BTC IDE1004 at firmware rev 0040. I also have some 1x K-Hypermedia DVD-R media, which according to dvdinfopro, has a MID of CMC00RG200, and a media ID code speed of 1x. Both Roxio and Nero want to burn this media at 4x on this drive. And fails.
Is there a way to force 1x writing?
Is there a list of MIDs (or flaky brands/media) that are known to be incompatible with this drive?
Thanks for all your comments and participation!

Marco BTC · 29-10-2003

Dear spath,

Of course you're right. General settings can be used according to the ADIP/LPP data, but additional information for each MID code is still preferred for optimal performance. It's like a fine tuning process. If you're working in a drive manufacturer's R&D then you probably know better than I do.

Still, firmware updates will be necessary.

And whether the firmware updates are necessary because of media that adhere to the DVD+ or DVD- standards or not, that is not the issue.

In theory, that is the issue, but in practice, it's not.

Because in theory you could say that an enduser shouldn't use a certain media because it doesn't adhere to the specs that the industry has set. But in practice, most of them will want to use it anyway, and who are you as (only one) drive manufacturer to say that they shouldn't. If the next drive manufacturer can support that media and you can't, you have no choice but to follow.

Unless your name is Sony. They can get away with it and they do, even with much higher prices.

Marco
BTC Europe Support

*Kenshin* · 29-10-2003

Thank you Marco for your help.

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MBiafra · 31-10-2003

Can i update the Firmware for My CIBOX DVDRW IDE 1004 Drive....wich is from BTC, or so i was told ... with the firmware update you posted before???

Is this Exactly the same drive of BTC or not ?? And if so can i update with further firmware upds that appear in the future???

Another Question....Now for Everybody.....

I'm from Portugal....and here... Princo rules.....at least in price and other features..... Distribuition of other brands is almost non-existent an so they sell like water down here..... I myself have burned some +-150 of them with no problm.... On a Pioneer 105 and the Cibox 1004..... Can you give me an honest opinion on Princo DVD-R's comparing to other cheap brands ????

Yet another question.......

What is the sistematic working time that you would suggest for DVD burners like those above.... before it is prudent to shutdown for a while to cool things down...... in order not to decrease worklife of the burner... Because my Pioneer, working 3/4/5 hours in a row... each time.... burned 100 or so perfectly in 1,5 months..... and then started burning increasinglly badlly and i had to put it on Repair.....

Marco BTC · 01-11-2003

MBiafra,

Princo media seem to be quite popular all around Europe, because they're usually cheap. However, I'm not too crazy about the reliability of these media.

Also, they seem to be in trouble due to not paying license fees to
Philips.

About CIBOX, if you want to update the firmware, pls. contact CIBOX about the latest version.

For your information, there is only 1 type of 4X Dual DVD writer (DRW1004) leaving the BTC factories. That's all I can say......

Enjoy your weekend !

Marco
BTC Europe Support

*Kenshin* · 01-11-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Marco BTC
MBiafra,

Princo media seem to be quite popular all around Europe, because they're usually cheap. However, I'm not too crazy about the reliability of these media.

Also, they seem to be in trouble due to not paying license fees to
Philips.

About CIBOX, if you want to update the firmware, pls. contact CIBOX about the latest version.

For your information, there is only 1 type of 4X Dual DVD writer (DRW1004) leaving the BTC factories. That's all I can say......

Enjoy your weekend !

Marco
BTC Europe Support

You know, Princo says they are not producing DVD+R/DVD+RW media because of Philips. Too much license fee, that is. I don't know exactly how much money Princo is not paying to Philips for their DVD-R and DVD-RW media.

Princo's latest DVD-R and DVD-RW media are not very reliable but some of them are really good for not-so-critical tasks. (For anything really important, I can recommend only Taiyo Yuden and Mitsubishi and never to forget make redundant backup.)

@MBiafra,

Princo DVD media are very cheap even in Europe and Asia because the import unit price is very low compared to Ritek and other major manufacturers in Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan. More and more inexpensive DVD media (under US$1) are appearing on the market, even made in India and Hong Kong.

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jvdpol · 07-11-2003

I just bought my first DVD recorder (happened to be a BTC IDE400) thinking the DVD recording world was mature enough to get some trouble free burning.
How wrong was that. Hearing all these incompatibility problems plus all the new stuff thats coming, like dual layer, higher speeds and blue ray, we are a long way from home.

So it took the industry 6 years to get here? no wonder with all these standards around. +R -R +RW -RW RAM. Thats the main reason for me for waiting 6 years to get one.
To much confusion even for me (ITpro) let alone a simple consumer. Imagine industry had come up with one standard right away (working out design flaws graduatly) and the huge amount of money they could have made. Sigh..., think its just the way of the world, just as it is with muslims, jews and christians. Its all about who's right/wrong, never about working and thinking together.

Back to good old reliable CD-R?

Marco BTC · 10-11-2003

jkdPol,

"Back to good old reliable CD-R?". Remember that in the beginning of the CD-R we had the same problems.

It just takes time to mature......

Look at Microsoft, they have been trying to make a stable OS for God knows how long, and they still didn't succeed ; )

Marco
BTC Europe Support

MBiafra · 10-11-2003

OK thanks for your reply.... but what about my other question??

What is the sistematic working time that you would suggest for DVD burners like those above.... before it is prudent to shutdown for a while to cool things down...... in order not to decrease worklife of the burner... Because my Pioneer, working 3/4/5 hours in a row... each time.... burned 100 or so perfectly in 1,5 months..... and then started burning increasinglly badlly and i had to put it on Repair.....

And Now my Cibox....working the more or less the same times....
Lasted me for not even 2 weeks.... It's increasing it's recording time more and more....now it cant even record at 1x speed..... reading (decrypting) is down to 1,1x...1,6x at best...... its taking me more than 1 hour to record a dvd ...at any speed i choose... because the buffer stays at +- 50% permanently...and the more time it is on the more time it takes to read or record anything...... Damn..... At least it could have lasted enough time to allow the Pioneer to be fixed.....

Man ... i have friends that are having similar problems with intensive use of DVD recorders.... They burn between 50 to 100 DVD-rs fine and then it seems they self-destruct.....
I´m fed up.... specs say 125 000 working hours..... at 20%....
Mine are making 500 working hours at best.....

What is happening???????

Marco BTC · 10-11-2003

MBiafra,

It's the first time I hear about this problem.

Your writing times get longer and longer ? That's really weird. I think it must be a heat issue.

Make sure that your system is cooled efficiently and that your drive isn't caught in between other drives, which cause the heat to buildup and do damage to your drive.

Marco
BTC Europe Support

MBiafra · 14-11-2003

Well It took me a while to figure it out... but apparentlly the buffer problem of the Cibox drive was MBoard BIOS bad configuration... but the Problem on the Pioneer is really a Worriyng issue........Not only me but, a lot of ppl i know records between 50 to 100 DVDs just fine and then starts to experience similar problems..... errors appear, first at 90% or so of the DVD then they start appearing sooner and sooner....

At Pioneer they told me that the problem on the Pioneer drive was probabbly caused by successive recording of 3 or 4 DVDs in a Row. This could be the cause for the rapid degradation of the Recording laser... "Overheating of the recording laser by successive burning..." and that the errors first appear on the outer side of the dvd, then they start moving inwards because the outer side vibrates more, because is more apart from the axis of rotation, so a increasinglly defective laser would result in such simptoms....

Well I bought this story.... it is the 3th drive ( A104 - A105 and now they gave me a 106) they give me...and two, diferent models, went on repair for this problem...so did other drives from other brands belonging to some friends... i do usually record one image and then burn 3 or 4 DVDs from it in a row....so it checks out..... now i alternate burning... burn once in Pioneer than one in Cibox to see if it works.....

what can you tell me about it???

Is successive burning really that bad???

what is the time a laser takes to cool from one burning??? beacause 1 burn at 4x takes 15 mins...so, by alternating recorders i'm giving the lasers 15 mins to cool off...is this enough???

Thks a lot for your interest.......

The truth about DVD RW Media, MID codes and Firmwares: beware of cheap media !

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