Old 13-02-2006   #1
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RID Code

Does anyone have collection of drives which write RID codes and drives which are capable of reading RID codes?

I need more RID code of drives!!!! Please help.

So far my results for RID codes are:
NEC ND-3500A:
NEC ND17

NEC ND-3540A:
NEC ND24

NEC ND-4550A:
NEC ND27

NEC NR-7500A:
NEC NR01

NEC NR-7700A:
NEC NR02

NEC NR-9100A:
NEC NR11

HL-DT-ST GCA-4080N no RID
SAMSUNG SN324F no RID

HP C4392-56000:
SNY AA00

LITE-ON CDRW LDR4125S:
LIT LB64

MITSUMI CR-487ETE:
CR- 487E

RID codes unaccessable on:
HL-DT-ST GCA-4080N
SAMSUNG SN324F
MITSUMI CR-487ETE
HP C4392-56000

RID codes accessable:
ND-3500A
ND-4550A
ND-3540A

You can access RID code by reading Run-out block 1 of Data Area (so no RID code on DAO)
OR you can you use my little programm (i can give sources if you want, but actually this programm is very simple)
Attached Files
File Type: zip RID_code.zip (38.0 KB, 216 views)
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Old 13-02-2006   #2
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Re: RID Code

Everything is NEC ND-xxxxA here:
1100 - ND02
1000 - ND03
1300 - ND04
5100 - ND05
2500 - ND09
6500 - ND16
3450 - ND19
3520 - ND21
3530 - ND22
6650 - ND23
3550 - ND30
3551 - ND31
7550 - ND32 (probably)

I'd be interested in the sourcecode of your program. Or at least tell me which commands need to be issued. I guess I could write a program for this myself

What can be done with these codes?
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Old 13-02-2006   #3
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Re: RID Code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liggy
Everything is NEC ND-xxxxA here:
Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liggy
I'd be interested in the sourcecode of your program. Or at least tell me which commands need to be issued. I guess I could write a program for this myself
Read TOC for number of tracks, then Read Track Info for size and start address of track. RID Code located at LBA address: session_last_address + 1. High order 3 bits of mode byte of this sector is 111b (for mode 1 - mode byte E1 instead of 01).

Also RID code located at LBA addresses:
session_first address - 150 (Link block)
session_first address - 149 (Run-in block 1)
session_first address - 148 (Run-in block 2)
session_first address - 147 (Run-in block 3)
session_first address - 146 (Run-in block 4)

No Link blocks - no RID code. (RID code appear only in incrimental writing)

On some drives RID Code unaccessable. If you will success in reading RID Code please tell me your drive model. Btw, on all NECs in my disposal RID code accessable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liggy
What can be done with these codes?
Various interesting things. If you read sector containing NEC RID code you can see drive serial number. If you can access serial number you can identify recorder.

P.S. Maybe you know how to convert sector read time to read speed?

P.P.S. And, as usual, sorry for my bad english
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Old 14-02-2006   #4
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Re: RID Code

How did you get RID codes without reading link blocks?
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Old 14-02-2006   #5
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Re: RID Code

Quote:
Originally Posted by ik-chan
How did you get RID codes without reading link blocks?
They are stored in the drives' calibration data and I have a small collection of this data for different NEC drives.
Maybe you could upload the sourcecode of your program here?
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Old 14-02-2006   #6
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Re: RID Code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liggy
They are stored in the drives' calibration data and I have a small collection of this data for different NEC drives.
And how did you get it from calibration area?
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Old 14-02-2006   #7
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Re: RID Code

I can use the same commands that I use for dumping the firmware with Binflash.
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Old 14-02-2006   #8
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Re: RID Code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liggy
I can use the same commands that I use for dumping the firmware with Binflash.
So you can change calibration area (recorded s/n) with different firmware?
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Old 14-02-2006   #9
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Re: RID Code

It doesn't even have to be a different firmware. This value can be manipulated without modifying the firmware.
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Old 14-02-2006   #10
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Re: RID Code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liggy
It doesn't even have to be a different firmware. This value can be manipulated without modifying the firmware.
But how? Can you give me more details about manipulating recorder id?
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Old 15-02-2006   #11
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Re: RID Code

Quote:
Originally Posted by ik-chan
No Link blocks - no RID code. (RID code appear only in incrimental writing)
It wouldn't make much sense to track only discs recorded in multiple times
would it ? RID code is also present in subcode and/or PMA.
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Old 15-02-2006   #12
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Re: RID Code

Quote:
Originally Posted by spath
It wouldn't make much sense to track only discs recorded in multiple times
would it ?
You may write disc one time with Track-at-Once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spath
RID code is also present in subcode and/or PMA.
Can you give more details? In what channel of subcode? In what area of PMA?

It make sense writing RID code in link blocks, because RID code appear in standard of 1995 year, and implemented in devices much later. Its implementation is voluntary for manufacturers.

Because in 1995 there was already standard for recordable disks, new standard with implementation of RID codes may not conflict with previous standard. RID may be in subchannel R-W (but CD-TEXT using R-W channel), but not in PMA.

But why it contains in link blocks if it is also contains in PMA and subchannel? It really make no sense...

If you really know and have proof where RID code contains - please say.

Btw, analog of RID code on DVD-R/RW is written in OPC area of RMA (analog of PMA).

Last edited by ik-chan; 15-02-2006 at 11:14.
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Old 15-02-2006   #13
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Re: RID Code

Quote:
Originally Posted by ik-chan
Thanks.

Read TOC for number of tracks, then Read Track Info for size and start address of track. RID Code located at LBA address: session_last_address + 1. High order 3 bits of mode byte of this sector is 111b (for mode 1 - mode byte E1 instead of 01).

Also RID code located at LBA addresses:
session_first address - 150 (Link block)
session_first address - 149 (Run-in block 1)
session_first address - 148 (Run-in block 2)
session_first address - 147 (Run-in block 3)
session_first address - 146 (Run-in block 4)

No Link blocks - no RID code. (RID code appear only in incrimental writing)..
Interesting. Ik-chan, what type of disc format you had success on, e.g. CDROM, CDDA, etc?
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Old 15-02-2006   #14
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Re: RID Code

Quote:
Originally Posted by ik-chan
You may write disc one time with Track-at-Once.
You may, but that's not the point. The point is that if you introduce a
tracking technology, you make it such that it will be there on every disc
your user will record, TAO or DAO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ik-chan
Can you give more details? In what channel of subcode? In what area of PMA?
Orange book reads:

- Consumer CD-recorders shall write their Recorder IDentification
(RID) code in subcode Q-channel mode 3. (see chapter V.6.3.2)

- Professional CD-recorders, able to write the CD-ROM and/or the
CD-i Format, shall write their Recorder IDentification (RID)
code in the main channel of the Table Of Contents Items in
the PMA. (see chapter V.4.5)
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Old 15-02-2006   #15
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Re: RID Code

Quote:
Originally Posted by spath
Orange book reads:

- Consumer CD-recorders shall write their Recorder IDentification
(RID) code in subcode Q-channel mode 3. (see chapter V.6.3.2)

- Professional CD-recorders, able to write the CD-ROM and/or the
CD-i Format, shall write their Recorder IDentification (RID)
code in the main channel of the Table Of Contents Items in
the PMA. (see chapter V.4.5)
Ok. I will try to test it.

How about link blocks? no word?
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Old 15-02-2006   #16
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Re: RID Code

Quote:
Originally Posted by ik-chan
How about link blocks? no word?
Sure, it says that "CD-recorders can store their RID code in the User Data
field of all Run-in and Run-out blocks at each data recording action".

and something I forgot

Quote:
Originally Posted by ik-chan
Btw, analog of RID code on DVD-R/RW is written in OPC area of RMA (analog of PMA).
No, otherwise data could get destroyed during OPC. OPC is performed in the PCA,
while drive information is stored in the RMA, a different region. On DVD+R/RW
this information is stored in the Inner Drive Area and the Disc Control Blocks.
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Old 16-02-2006   #17
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Re: RID Code

Quote:
Originally Posted by spath
and something I forgot

No, otherwise data could get destroyed during OPC. OPC is performed in the PCA,
while drive information is stored in the RMA, a different region.
Actually i wanted to say "OPC realted information" in RMA. Field 1 in RMD Format 1 and 3.
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Old 16-02-2006   #18
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Re: RID Code

Ok. I\ve checked it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spath
You may, but that's not the point. The point is that if you introduce a
tracking technology, you make it such that it will be there on every disc
your user will record, TAO or DAO.
PMA is not written in DAO. And in DAO there is ability to write different Q-channel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by spath
Orange book reads:

- Consumer CD-recorders shall write their Recorder IDentification
(RID) code in subcode Q-channel mode 3. (see chapter V.6.3.2)
.
And what about ISRC?
Quote:
Originally Posted by spath
- Professional CD-recorders, able to write the CD-ROM and/or the
CD-i Format, shall write their Recorder IDentification (RID)
code in the main channel of the Table Of Contents Items in
the PMA. (see chapter V.4.5)
No PMA in DAO, so this make no sense.

Have you really extracted RID from PMA or sub-channel? If you have - plese say how
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Old 17-02-2006   #19
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Re: RID Code

Quote:
Originally Posted by ik-chan
PMA is not written in DAO. And in DAO there is ability to write different Q-channel.
You don't understand what I meant, nevermind.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ik-chan
And what about ISRC?
Explained in the Orange book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ik-chan
No PMA in DAO, so this make no sense.

Have you really extracted RID from PMA or sub-channel? If you have - plese say how
Of course I have, and a lot of tools read RID this way.
So now the Orange book (that you have not read) doesn't
make sense ? I don't like people who call bullshit on
everything they don't understand or don't know until
they get nice explanations, so from now on you will
do without me.
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Old 17-02-2006   #20
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Re: RID Code

Spath, friend... don't be so hard on him. everyone has right to make mistakes...
You may have a rainbow of books... you're a genius... help people... do good and you will receive good.

(spath)5 posts deleted. No posting when you're drunk please.

Last edited by spath; 17-02-2006 at 19:50.
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Old 18-02-2006   #21
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Quote:
No posting when you're drunk please
I am worried about most all my previous posts now...

Yesterday I created a CD-R from some MP3s. I have a LITE-ON SOHW-1693S. I did this in DAO mode with Nero 6.0.0.13.

Today I read the Q-Channel from the CD-R and found some mode 3 Q-Channel entries that were not ISRCs. I do not have the Orange book in front of me so I do not know how to decode these findings. However, if I use the info below, I can make the first 5 characters out to be 'SNYGF'. This would seem to be a Sony RID.

Code:
MODE	TRACK	INDEX	 R-TIME	  ZERO	 A-TIME	    CRC
 01	 01	  01	00:00:01   00	00:02:01   D955	 *Normal Q-Channel
 03	 96	  38	93:44:05   12	34:50:02   ####	 *If next sector is ISRC = USRCA0512345
  
Note:
The MODE, A-Time 'Frame' field, and CRC are not part of the ISRC.
The MODE is 03 for ISRC.
A-Time 'Frame' field increments as normal.
The CRC is calculated as normal.
#### means I don't know the CRC of this right now.

ISRC encoding in Q-Channel mode 3:
First 5 digits of ISRC are encoded as 6 bit Octal. Total of 30 bits. (see below)
Next 2 reserved bits shall be 00. (see note below)
Remaining 7 digits of ISRC are encoded as 4 bit BCD. Total of 28 bits.
Next 4 bits shall be 0000.
A-Time 'Frame' field is normal. Total 8 bits.
Total bits = 72

Add MODE (8 bits) and CRC (16 bits) and you have your 96 bits (12 bytes) of Q-Channel.

Note:
When the 2 reserved 00 bits are set to 11, then this is RID and not ISRC. I think this is correct.
  
Below is the conversion table for the ISRC to Octal
 
ASCII	BINARY	OCTAL
  0	000000	  00
  1	000001	  01
  2	000010	  02
  3	000011	  03
  4	000100	  04
  5	000101	  05
  6	000110	  06
  7	000111	  07
  8	001000	  10
  9	001001	  11
  A	010001	  21
  B	010010	  22
  C	010011	  23
  D	010100	  24
  E	010101	  25
  F	010110	  26
  G	010111	  27
  H	011000	  30
  I	011001	  31
  J	011010	  32
  K	011011	  33
  L	011100	  34
  M	011101	  35
  N	011110	  36
  O	011111	  37
  P	100000	  40
  Q	100001	  41
  R	100010	  42
  S	100011	  43
  T	100100	  44
  U	100101	  45
  V	100110	  46
  W	100111	  47
  X	101000	  50
  Y	101001	  51
  Z	101010	  52
I hope this info is helpful to someone. If anyone knows how to decode RID, please post it here.

Rich
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Old 18-02-2006   #22
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Re: RID Code

Quote:
Originally Posted by spath
So now the Orange book (that you have not read) doesn't
make sense ?
OK. I haven't read Orange Book. But are all standards of orange book implemented in modern drives? (i'm not calling orange book - bullshit or something, because standards an implementation are often deifferent)

Quote:
Originally Posted by spath
I don't like people who call bullshit on
everything they don't understand or don't know until
they get nice explanations, so from now on you will
do without me.
Sorry, if I insulted you. I don't call it bullshit - i just trying to understand.
Everyone makes mistake in their quest of knowledge...

What I realy don't understand is the lack of information about RID code. So far I see that some gurus (no insult) really know about RID code, but majority of community don't know about existence of RID code.
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Old 18-02-2006   #23
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Re: RID Code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truman
Interesting. Ik-chan, what type of disc format you had success on, e.g. CDROM, CDDA, etc?
So far, CDROM, CD Mixed mode (only data track).
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Old 18-02-2006   #24
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Re: RID Code

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMan
I am worried about most all my previous posts now...

Yesterday I created a CD-R from some MP3s. I have a LITE-ON SOHW-1693S. I did this in DAO mode with Nero 6.0.0.13.

Today I read the Q-Channel from the CD-R and found some mode 3 Q-Channel entries that were not ISRCs. I do not have the Orange book in front of me so I do not know how to decode these findings. However, if I use the info below, I can make the first 5 characters out to be 'SNYGF'. This would seem to be a Sony RID.
Very interesting... And what size of your disc? Is - 34:50:02 - end or middle of disc?

So far I haven't found different from mode 1 Q-subchannel in Data Area...
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Old 18-02-2006   #25
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Re: RID Code

34:50:02 is not an A-Time. The 34 and 50 is part of the ISRC. The 02 is like I said above, a normal A-Time 'Frame' field. In my example USRCA0512345 is the ISRC that is defined in that line of mode 3 Q-Channel. You can see the 0512345 in the R-Time, Zero, and A-Time fileds. The USRCA is encoded in the 96 38 93:44.

In my example, the ISRC was at A-Time 00:02:02 but the minutes and seconds fields are used by ISRC. '*If next sector is ISRC = USRCA0512345' should have read '*If THIS sector is ISRC = USRCA0512345'.

I was describing the ISRC layout so I could show that mode 3 (normally ISRC) can also be used for RID when the two 00 bits are 11 instead.
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