Old 25-08-2005   #1
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how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

mmm i was browsing in some ps2 forums, and found that a guy already discovered how the ps2 tecnically detected copied or original discs, this is for sam and truman, i dont know if you already read it but mmm here is the link

http://www.ps2-scene.org/forums/atta...achmentid=8353

it says something about DSV protection, mm if this post doesnt help, im sorry, i just saw a bunch of ps2 protection informantion, and i thought you might be interested in it
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Old 25-08-2005   #2
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by oscarjf
mmm i was browsing in some ps2 forums, and found that a guy already discovered how the ps2 tecnically detected copied or original discs, this is for sam and truman, i dont know if you already read it but mmm here is the link

http://www.ps2-scene.org/forums/atta...achmentid=8353

it says something about DSV protection, mm if this post doesnt help, im sorry, i just saw a bunch of ps2 protection informantion, and i thought you might be interested in it

The information contained within that file is completely wrong - it's idle speculation that has no basis in truth. I'd go further and say it is purposeful disinformation.

The PS2 protection for CD and DVD is based upon a completely different set of mechanisms.
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Old 29-08-2005   #3
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

Has anybody ever explained what those mechanisms are?
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Old 30-08-2005   #4
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

sam and truman were getting very deep in psx copy protection in another post here, but i didnt saw them talk about dsv
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Old 30-08-2005   #5
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

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Originally Posted by oscarjf
sam and truman were getting very deep in psx copy protection in another post here, but i didnt saw them talk about dsv
Link?
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Old 05-09-2005   #6
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

Maybe this guy was wrong, I bet he is workin for sony, he is also banned to, so maybe I shouldnt beleive him, dunno.
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Old 23-09-2005   #7
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

Interesting read, but a total fabrication.

DSV exists and you do need to keep the DSV sum close to zero when encoding EFM. But I’m afraid it has nothing to do with the protection on PS2 media.

Also, the erroneous data on our discs is nothing to do with the PS2 disc protection. It does make our discs unreadable in a PC (or at least certain data sectors), but it came about mainly because I didn’t get round to encoding those sectors as I didn’t need them; Plus we liked the side effect of the disc being hard to read in a PC. Funny enough, when the PSX came out in Japan, I had to fix a whole range of sectors as our disc didn’t work in it. If you compare one of out early Jap discs to a newer one, you will find a PC will not even recognize the early disc, but put with a newer disc in a PC and you get a file list.

In answer to “So why cant Datel press discs like Sony”: We can and we do, but we only make our own products.

The reason all the discs are the same (all Japanse discs, all Europe discs, all USA discs) is because I use the same protection key on the disc. I could quite easily use a different key, but why bother?

Fortunately, the PS2 is nowhere near dead and hence I can’t disclose exactly how the PS2 protection works. The PS2 has at least another 2 years left in it from a software & peripherals manufacturer point of view, just look at how long and well the PSOne sold after the PS2 came out!

I can tell you I wrote a lot of software including data analysis and full decoders & encoders for CD HF and EFM. Far too much time was spent with microscopes, expensive CD test hardware, oscilloscopes, digital and analogue samplers. PS2 guts decorated my desk along with empty Dr Pepper cans. It took a number of late nights over a period of about 10 months from start to finish. And it helped to have a mastering plant!

Gav.
Datel.
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Old 14-01-2006   #8
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

Wow you really work for Datel?
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Old 19-01-2006   #9
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

Yeah, for over 10 years.....
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Old 19-01-2006   #10
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

Gav, can you please explain to me how the psx (not PS2) boot protection cannot be added to a cd-r even with a modchip attached to the cd-r motherboard drive, which will offset the laser so the SCEx protection can be added?
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Old 07-03-2006   #11
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lillster
Gav, can you please explain to me how the psx (not PS2) boot protection cannot be added to a cd-r even with a modchip attached to the cd-r motherboard drive, which will offset the laser so the SCEx protection can be added?
Not 100% sure what you mean, if you're talking about the PlayStation 1 "wobble" protection; And you're asking why can't you put it on a burnable CDR, well the simple answer would be that CDR media is quite different to CD-ROM media in structure. I guess it would be hard/impossible to put the wobble protection on a CDR as they have pre-groove wobble on them already.

Of course, with infinite money and the desire. You could in theory develop a hybrid CDR which has a leading area of CD-ROM with the wobble protection in it, and then a section of disc that is normal CDR for burning........ wait, you'd need a hybrid burner too..... but thats ok, we have infinte money!
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Old 07-03-2006   #12
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

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Originally Posted by Gav
Fortunately, the PS2 is nowhere near dead and hence I can’t disclose exactly how the PS2 protection works. The PS2 has at least another 2 years left in it from a software & peripherals manufacturer point of view, just look at how long and well the PSOne sold after the PS2 came out!
You have quite the talent
I hope after PS2 is dead (But I think not for a very long time to come), hope you'll be kind enough to post here the inner workings
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Old 08-03-2006   #13
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gav_
Not 100% sure what you mean, if you're talking about the PlayStation 1 "wobble" protection; And you're asking why can't you put it on a burnable CDR, well the simple answer would be that CDR media is quite different to CD-ROM media in structure. I guess it would be hard/impossible to put the wobble protection on a CDR as they have pre-groove wobble on them already.

Of course, with infinite money and the desire. You could in theory develop a hybrid CDR which has a leading area of CD-ROM with the wobble protection in it, and then a section of disc that is normal CDR for burning........ wait, you'd need a hybrid burner too..... but thats ok, we have infinte money!
What I mean is (this is Trumans theory btw) what if I were to burn slightly off the wobble, so that the psx E + F sensors won't pickup the 'noise' coming from the ATIP Wobble. So basicly I would be writing to the disc using a fake wobble signal.
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Old 13-03-2006   #14
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

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Originally Posted by The Lillster
What I mean is (this is Trumans theory btw) what if I were to burn slightly off the wobble, so that the psx E + F sensors won't pickup the 'noise' coming from the ATIP Wobble. So basicly I would be writing to the disc using a fake wobble signal.
Anything is possible, but not with this method.

You're on about altering a groove on a disc that is tens of nanometres thick, surrounded with walls which are also tens of nanometres thick. The track already wobbles approx +-10 nanometres, in a fixed frequency; and you need to make this wobble disappear in some places and make it positive or negative in others.

I can't imagine a normal or modified CDR burner could do this. You would need to be able to control the head to burn +-10 (or more to compensate for the existing wobble) nanometres off centre as requested, plus you would need to know at what offset the wobble at that point on the track was. One instant problem I can think of is that the head would be following the current wobble, but to burn at the opposite side of the track to affect the wobble it would need to be in a different position at the same time. This is all assuming having a track with part of its wall burnt out to affect its wobble signal would work on the PS1's wobble signal detection circuit in the first place.

I could think of more feasible ways to make a CDR boot on a PS1.
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Old 14-03-2006   #15
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

Do you mean other than a modchip? Too bad you can't share that info. with us, damn non-disclosure contracts.
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Old 27-03-2006   #16
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

Gav, a couple of weeks ago I recieved a Playstation 2 demo disc. However the disc didn't work on the ps2, so I tried it on my PC. And it seems to be a Master Disc or something. Its full of .ELF files and there is no Boot Sector on it (You know the part where it says weather it's European, American, Japan). This part seemed intresting though...

Quote:
[Boot]
Territory = SCEE ; SCEE or SCEA

[Gore]
Blood = Yes ; Yes or No
Do you have any idea what this disc is, and why they sent it me? And is there anything I can do with it?

Cheers.
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Old 27-03-2006   #17
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

It's probably a game demo for use on a debug unit, as usually sent to magazines to review/preview new games before they come out.
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Old 27-03-2006   #18
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

So basicly I can do F all with it?

Also can you go into a bit more detail what you ment by "I could think of more feasible ways to make a CDR boot on a PS1."

Btw the modchip method won't follow the wobble on the disc, it will use a fake wobble signal, so that it doesn't loose tracking. Also this is only theory atm, A lot of testing needs to be done to see which method works the best. I mean you could send me a PM and save me a lot of time and tell me the best way (you think) is the way to manipulate the wobble.

I mean come on! Playtation has just stopped being developed. Theres a PSX emulator coming to PSP.

So I doubt theres a problem with selfbooting psx discs now anyway!

Also the games are dirt cheap anyway. Im only in this selfbooting thing for fun. I don't even like playstation.
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Old 27-03-2006   #19
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lillster
So basicly I can do F all with it?
Well, you could make a nice clock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lillster
Also can you go into a bit more detail what you ment by "I could think of more feasible ways to make a CDR boot on a PS1."
Just the sort of thing I said earlier: if you had your own mastering plant, enough know how, resources and money; You could make a new hybrid disc with the wobble at the start leading into a valid CDR of sorts. Wouldn't be commercialy viable now, not much demand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lillster
Btw the modchip method won't follow the wobble on the disc, it will use a fake wobble signal, so that it doesn't loose tracking. Also this is only theory atm, A lot of testing needs to be done to see which method works the best. I mean you could send me a PM and save me a lot of time and tell me the best way (you think) is the way to manipulate the wobble.

I mean come on! Playtation has just stopped being developed. Theres a PSX emulator coming to PSP.

So I doubt theres a problem with selfbooting psx discs now anyway!

Also the games are dirt cheap anyway. Im only in this selfbooting thing for fun. I don't even like playstation.
Sorry, I can't see any "easy or cheap" way to make a CDR boot on a PSX without a modchip.
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Old 30-03-2006   #20
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

Gav, i've just re-read some of your old posts. You mentioned altering the wobble groove. Thats not what i was talking about!

What I ment was, use a modchip in a cd-r burner to block the wobble code coming from the disc, use the modchip to generate a fake wobble signal since the one coming from the disc has been blocked now, and disturb the tracking coils so that the laser shifts off the wobble. (This creating a 0) and shift the laser onto the wobble when there needs to be a 1.

So basicly whats happening is the data track has been shifted off the wobble so when the psx reads the disc, it will start reading from the data track which is off the wobble.

Also if I use a plexwriter premium to do this, I will be able to compress or make the pits and lands bigger. The laser power can also be controlled.

At the moment this is only theory, and (if) it does work it will probably work very different to the way i'm explaining it.

Please tell me what you think, and why it won't work. And any idea's that would be better.
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Old 31-03-2006   #21
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

Oh right, that makes more sense. Ok, with that idea:

Your modchip will need to take over the laser head movement at the point you burn your wobble signal. This will mean it is not following the pre-groove, you will be controlling the laser head to write your wobble signal. At this point you will also need to send the burners controller a fake wobble signal so the drive doesn't go mad (the drive uses the wobble to control the burn speed).

There won't be any problems with the existing pre-groove as the pre-groove is only the slightest of grooves it will totally disappear when the data track is burned, hence it shouldn’t affect your new “PS1 wobble" groove in any way.

I would imagine controlling the CD Writers laser to produce the wobble would be pretty difficult. Another problem you’ll find is that the wobble starts in the lead in area of the CD, so you’ll need to take total control of the head mechanism to make it go there (assuming it physically can).

So “in theory”, I guess it could work. But personally, I think maybe a bunch of R&D hardware bods at some CD Writer drive mech place could develop a new drive, but it'll be nearly impossible to modify a standard CD writer to do this. Nice theory though.
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Old 31-03-2006   #22
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gav_
Oh right, that makes more sense. Ok, with that idea:

Your modchip will need to take over the laser head movement at the point you burn your wobble signal. This will mean it is not following the pre-groove, you will be controlling the laser head to write your wobble signal. At this point you will also need to send the burners controller a fake wobble signal so the drive doesn't go mad (the drive uses the wobble to control the burn speed).

There won't be any problems with the existing pre-groove as the pre-groove is only the slightest of grooves it will totally disappear when the data track is burned, hence it shouldn’t affect your new “PS1 wobble" groove in any way.

I would imagine controlling the CD Writers laser to produce the wobble would be pretty difficult. Another problem you’ll find is that the wobble starts in the lead in area of the CD, so you’ll need to take total control of the head mechanism to make it go there (assuming it physically can).

So “in theory”, I guess it could work. But personally, I think maybe a bunch of R&D hardware bods at some CD Writer drive mech place could develop a new drive, but it'll be nearly impossible to modify a standard CD writer to do this. Nice theory though.
It won't be as hard as your making it out to be!

For a start most of the hard part will be controlled by the cd-r burner software. Im not burning my own wobble, im just shifting the data track OFF the one pre-recorded on the disc. So when the psx reads the disc it won't pickup the noise coming off the wobble. As you said the only thing the fake wobble will be used for is to keep the writer happy.

Anyway, theres only one way to see who's right.
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Old 31-03-2006   #23
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

Yeah, maybe. If you're burning as normal, I guess (I don't know for sure how it works - I'm no CD writer hardware expert) the head will be following the pre-groove wobble. So if you are burning and then stop the head following the pre-groove using your mod, then you will have a section where it isn't wobbling. And with a bit of luck the pre-groove wobble would have been at a frequency the PS1 likes.

You still have the problem of getting the drive to burn in the lead-in area of the disc.

So are you going to have a go at doing this?
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Old 31-03-2006   #24
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gav_
Yeah, maybe. If you're burning as normal, I guess (I don't know for sure how it works - I'm no CD writer hardware expert) the head will be following the pre-groove wobble. So if you are burning and then stop the head following the pre-groove using your mod, then you will have a section where it isn't wobbling. And with a bit of luck the pre-groove wobble would have been at a frequency the PS1 likes.

You still have the problem of getting the drive to burn in the lead-in area of the disc.

So are you going to have a go at doing this?
Well I would like to.

However, it won't be me thats doing all the dirty work. The problem is though, the guy who is doing all the work is really busy lately(He has to travel at least 15 miles a day. So he hardly has any free time.

The good news is that he is very keen, and has already done some basic tests. He also said that it will be the testing thats gonna take up all the time. Building the chip and testing it won't take that long.

I have said I would like to help out, but tests need to be done first.

As for the burner not being able to write in the leadin:

Are you sure your not confused with leadout?

I'm prety sure all burners are capable of buring in the leadin, after all thats where the TOC is writen.

So please tell me, how much do you actually know about the PSX protection? - PM if you want. I mean the patents do help, however they are a little cryptic. If you could give me a better explanation, that would be great.

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Old 31-03-2006   #25
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Re: how datel copied the PS2 copy protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lillster
Well I would like to.

As for the burner not being able to write in the leadin:

Are you sure your not confused with leadout?

I'm prety sure all burners are capable of buring in the leadin, after all thats where the TOC is writen.
As I said before, I don't know much about CD Writers. I know a lot about CD's, DVD's, encoding and mastering plants but that’s beside the point.

If I remember correctly, again I could be wrong, I thought CD-R's had a pre-recorded TOC in the lead-in that describes blocks, power, speed, etc (the ATIP info).

Do CD-Writers actually ever burn in this area, I don't know. The drive must read this info (some tracks of it) but can you make it write there and over all the tracks you need it to write to.

And when I say lead-in, I'm talking about the area of the disc before the data tracks, not the 2 second "lead-in"/"lead-out" areas that are put before/after tracks when you write to a CDR.

** Anyone reading this with knowledge about CD Writers and/or CDR media please clarify this stuff **

All the same, give it a go, might work, nothings impossible.
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