Old 18-09-2004   #126
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

After a few tests with the drive, I have to say that this drive is not really useful for PI/PIF testing. The results are way too high, and I wonder why the error rates always start at a very high level, and then "normalise" after a while (even with very good burns).

Whatever, thank you for all your effort Erik. I'll still enjoy the great reading performance and error correction of this drive, but I won't use it for PI/PIF testing. Transfer rate scanning is a different issue though. Especially if you test media at the highest speeds (hopefully that "lock up" issue will be fixed), you can get clues about the burning quality of the discs, e.g. in addition to transfer rate scans with the burner.
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Old 18-09-2004   #127
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

Ok, I played around with the disc quality testing a little.


This is a MCC 03 disc burned at 8x, scanned at 4x:

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Same disc scanned at 8x:

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Scanned at 16x:

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Like Erik said earlier, 8x seems to be the 'best' speed for testing. You can see how the speed influences the result in the last scan.


Ok, enough PI/PIF for me for now. I'll stick to good old transfer rate scans, and more importantly, testing the discs in stand alone players and other drives. But like others mentioned earlier, if you have a good burner and use good media, you can forget about testing and concentrate on other, more important things. Like having a beer.

Cheers everyone!
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Old 18-09-2004   #128
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

FYI I don't use the transfer rate test much anymore as I found a lot of very good rate tests on average burns and very average rate tests on exceptional burns. If anyone is aware of why these variances exist I would be glad to hear about it. Transfer rate must be telling me something right?
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Old 18-09-2004   #129
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

Transfer rate scanning is only useful at the highest speeds (16x). It's basically a simple jitter test. Jitter influences the drive's performance especially at the highest speeds, so if the transfer curve 'collapses' at the end of the disc (--> highest speed), this may be an indication of too high jitter (e.g. due to high (too high) burning speed, or simply because the disc quality itself is not good (low quality discs especially show high error rates at the end of the disc --> temperature problems during the production of the disc). This test only makes sense with good readers though.
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Old 18-09-2004   #130
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

We not quite have a beer.. I want to know how close some of the disks I have are to failing.. especially since I am beta testing the firmware on the other forum for the nec3500a for liggy and some fail but I have a feeling some will work in my drives and players but are marginal and on the edge of failing so I want to know that ... That is why I want to compare the numbers for a couple of disks that have failed .. to other disks I am burning with beta firmware that is pushing the envelope to see if We are pushing it too hard....

I believe this disk should be good enough to do that used properly...


It is kind of a pain though scanning the disks that have failed if every time I have to reboot..due to the bug...damn
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Old 18-09-2004   #131
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

Ok I have a disk that breaks all the rules... It actually scans better at 4x than 8x .. and looking at the scans it is hard to believe it passes the transfer rate test it shows show bad at the end..
it was written at 12x using the beta firmware...

I think the threshold to make a disk unreadeable in my drive is about 6K Max pi errors.



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here is the same media written at 8x which it likes a lot more

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Old 18-09-2004   #132
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

Hi!

Can someone tell me somtheing about how the drive can handle protected audio und data discs? It is said that the drive can't handle protected audio Cds. Fast error skipping doesn't work? Can the drive read subchannel data?




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Old 18-09-2004   #133
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

The drive can read subchannel data and skips the bad sectors of SD2 protected games VERY fast. Again, the lack of speed control is annoying since it is not able to read out a protected disc at a slow speed :-(

I cannot say anything about protected audio discs.
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Old 18-09-2004   #134
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

Ok, a few scans @4X and 8X - and the same disc scanned @4X with K's Probe. Seems to me like the Disc Quality scans are not even close to being comparable to K's Probe. The PI/PIF values are much too high and not reflected in the transferrate test.

Interesting to see that the ND-3500 reads this disc @16X with full error correction enabled while the AOpen limits the speed to 12X.
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Old 18-09-2004   #135
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

Same disc as in previous posting. Did the max speed trick and made a transferrate test at full speed (16X). No problems encountered at all. I still believe that the Disc quality test errorlevels are way too high. Otherwise it would have been reflected in this test since the errorcorrection gets disabled when running in full speed mode.
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Old 18-09-2004   #136
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

For the Newegg customers, the drive is back in stock.
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Old 18-09-2004   #137
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by easy-going-man
... and skips the bad sectors of SD2 protected games VERY fast.
I'll even say amazingly fast. Skips the bad sectors (using latest Alcohol120%) in just 6 seconds!
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Old 18-09-2004   #138
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane02
Hi!

Can someone tell me somtheing about how the drive can handle protected audio und data discs? It is said that the drive can't handle protected audio Cds.
According to the (usually very reliable) c't review I posted in the beginning of the thread, it can read as many audio protections (and the same ones) as the LiteOn 166s. So I'd say that it is an OK drive for audio protected discs, but there are better drives for that job (--> CD-RWs usually do a better job at ripping protected audio discs than DVD-ROMs, e.g. the Plextor Premium or the Yamaha F1).
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Old 18-09-2004   #139
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

Ok, this scan is funny so I had to post it. It actually made me wonder if this drive could have been used for creating the graphics for the old arcade game Lunar Lander The only thing missing is the small spaceship trying to find a safe place to land.

I have attached screenshots of the same disc tested in both ND-2500 and ND-3500. Man, I thought the ND-2500 was a bad reader
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Old 18-09-2004   #140
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

Heh, funny curve. What drive was the disc burned with? If it's one of the NEC drives, that might explain why they seem to like your (HORRIBLE!) Multi Media Masters & Machinary disc more. If not, you can at least say that the NEC drives (including the ND-2500) are better (CD-)readers than people think.
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Old 18-09-2004   #141
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

pdu, I think that your funny curve has nothing to do with the drive itself, I could reproduce those curves myself right now. Do you have the drive running as SLAVE on the same IDE channel as a harddrive (-> MASTER) of yours? And did you access the hdd often during that test? Furthermore, are your NEC drives on the other IDE channel?

Because that's exactly my setup, and hdd access does influence the curve considerably in CD transfer scanning mode (-> funny curves). Once I stopped accessing the hdd, I got a perfect transfer curve.
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Old 18-09-2004   #142
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by packetloss
Heh, funny curve. What drive was the disc burned with? If it's one of the NEC drives, that might explain why they seem to like your (HORRIBLE!) Multi Media Masters & Machinary disc more. If not, you can at least say that the NEC drives (including the ND-2500) are better (CD-)readers than people think.
You are right. The discs are real crap and not part of my normal collection of recordables. Actually the disc was toasted on my ND-3500. Burnspeed was limited to 24X (no wonder). Tried a second on on my ND-2500. Same pattern. Luckily this was the last Multi Media Masters & Machinary disc.
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Old 18-09-2004   #143
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by packetloss
pdu, I think that your funny curve has nothing to do with the drive itself, I could reproduce those curves myself right now. Do you have the drive running as SLAVE on the same IDE channel as a harddrive (-> MASTER) of yours? And did you access the hdd often during that test? Furthermore, are your NEC drives on the other IDE channel?

Because that's exactly my setup, and hdd access does influence the curve considerably in CD transfer scanning mode (-> funny curves). Once I stopped accessing the hdd, I got a perfect transfer curve.
No, my HDD's are on the Primary IDE channel like this

Pri master: HDD
Pri slave: HDD
Sec master: AOpen DVD1648
Sec slave: ND-2500A
Ext. USB2: ND-3500AG

I did not produce any load on the Secondary channel while doing any of the scans.
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Old 18-09-2004   #144
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

Alright, then it's not it. But I can reproduce those funny curves exactly like I explained above. The same disc gives me a perfect result once I stop accessing the harddrive running on the same channel.
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Old 18-09-2004   #145
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

ANybody tried copying doom 3 with this disk.. will it copy that kind of copy protection????
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Old 19-09-2004   #146
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

Has anyone used this drive in an external enclosure yet? I know I had mine hooked up to an IDE card at first and it was crabby until I gave it its own on-board connector. I was also wondering if an external USB connection of 480 mbps would defeat the whole purpose or is the data already slower than that?
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Old 19-09-2004   #147
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

I have my ND-3500AG mounted in an external USB2 enclosure. No problems at all. The theoretical 480 mpbs bandwidth (60 megabytes per second) is more than enough for a 16X DVD reader/writer. However if you have tons of stuff hooked up to the USB subsystem things may change and firewire might be a better alternative.
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Old 19-09-2004   #148
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdu
I have my ND-3500AG mounted in an external USB2 enclosure. No problems at all. The theoretical 480 mpbs bandwidth (60 megabytes per second) is more than enough for a 16X DVD reader/writer. However if you have tons of stuff hooked up to the USB subsystem things may change and firewire might be a better alternative.
Much thanks
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Old 19-09-2004   #149
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdu
Ok, a few scans @4X and 8X - and the same disc scanned @4X with K's Probe. Seems to me like the Disc Quality scans are not even close to being comparable to K's Probe. The PI/PIF values are much too high and not reflected in the transferrate test.
The reason why the PI/PIF values are higher is because the AOpen collects the error data for 32 ECC blocks while LiteOn DVD burners collect them for 1 ECC block.
So basically PI errors can be up to 4 times higher and PI failures can be up to 32 times higher.
You can compare directly with KProbe scans by changing the ECC settings from 8/1 to 32/32 ECC.
Here is a comparison between the AOpen and the LiteOn 812S:

AOpen (scanned at 8x CAV)
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LiteOn (scanned at 4x CLV)
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The PIF graphs are almost identical except for the beginning.

LiteOn (scanned at 8x CAV)
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This graph shows that the AOpen has less trouble reading bad discs at 8x than the LiteOn.
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Old 19-09-2004   #150
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Re: Aopen 1648/AAP discussion

Hi Erik
Thanx for the explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Deppe
The reason why the PI/PIF values are higher is because the AOpen collects the error data for 32 ECC blocks while LiteOn DVD burners collect them for 1 ECC block.
Can this be changed? I mean, is it possible for the AOpen to collect data for 1 ECC block instead of 32 ECC blocks? If not, I guess we have to adjust our reference once and for all and forget about comparing with K's Probe scans. Unless ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Deppe
So basically PI errors can be up to 4 times higher and PI failures can be up to 32 times higher.
Could you implement a checkbox/switch that will adjust the results by dividing PI by 4 and PIF by 32? Wouldn't this be an easy/awesome way to make the scans comparable after all?

Cheers,
Peter
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