For those interested in DAE quality

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Audio Discuss, For those interested in DAE quality at Software forum; Andre Wiethoff, the author of EAC, has started a new project on DAE quality . With the use of a selfmade test-cd and some analyse software you can test your own drives for its DAE capabilities. I have tested 3 drives: Plextor Px-40ts, LiteOn Ltd-163 and LiteOn Ltr-40125s. The results

Upp3rd0G's Avatar
Upp3rd0G (CDFreaks Resident)
Posts: 2,116
Posted: 26-09-2002
Andre Wiethoff, the author of EAC, has started a new project on DAE quality. With the use of a selfmade test-cd and some analyse software you can test your own drives for its DAE capabilities.

I have tested 3 drives: Plextor Px-40ts, LiteOn Ltd-163 and LiteOn Ltr-40125s.

The results and some discussion can be found here on the EAC forum.

Feel free to ask questions, discuss the results or display your own results.
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Today (MyCE Staff)
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spath's Avatar
spath (Moderator)
Posts: 993
Posted: 30-09-2002
As I already said elsewhere this project has
been quite badly devised, so one should not
consider its results as gospel and certainly not
choose a drive based on them.
Upp3rd0G's Avatar
Upp3rd0G (CDFreaks Resident)
Posts: 2,116
Posted: 30-09-2002
@spath

As I am still seriously interested in this subject and as I am also willing to learn, I will PM you about this subject. Hope you can clear up things for me!
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spath (Moderator)
Posts: 993
Posted: 07-10-2002
Not only is this project badly devised, but the
thread you started (http://www.digital-inn.de/showthread.php?threadid=15838)
shows how confused Andre is about audio
extraction : don't trust his stuff or his
explanations.
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alexnoe (CDFreaks Resident)
Posts: 4,695
Posted: 07-10-2002
I'm struggling with his picture...what exactly does *he* mean with "one block? Does he mean an F2 Frame?
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Asus P4C800E-Deluxe, Win XP, P4/2800 HT, 2048 MB RAM, 600 GB HDD, Plextor PX712/716/755/Premium, LG 4120B, Pioneer A08, Pioneer A09, NEC ND-3540A/4550A
------------------------------------------------
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!
How a troll wants to force users of Linux to buy Windows just to make use of Plextor DVD writer unique functions
------------------------------------------------
PxScan/PxView (compatible to Premium, PX-712, PX-714, PX-716), now with built-in picture file output
Bitsetting via Autostart
My Blog about DADVSI (new french copyright)
Last edited by alexnoe; 08-10-2002 at 00:29.
Upp3rd0G's Avatar
Upp3rd0G (CDFreaks Resident)
Posts: 2,116
Posted: 08-10-2002
http://www.chipchapin.com/CDMedia/cdda7.php3
http://www.chipchapin.com/CDMedia/cdrom3.php3
http://www.ee.washington.edu/consele...udio2/95x7.htm

From Chip Chapin's page:

Quote:
"A Sector is the smallest addressable part of the information area that can be accessed independently" [ECMA-130 section 14]. A sector contains 98 frames. The frames themselves are the same as was described in the CD-DA section -- each frame of 588 channel bits contains a "payload" of 192 data bits, or 24 data bytes. Thus there are 24*98 = 2352 data bytes in a sector.
In the drawing Pio2001 refers to a block which is the same as a frame.
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BoSkin's Avatar
BoSkin (CDFreaks Resident)
Posts: 5,606
Posted: 08-10-2002
Quote:
The Plextor was always considered as the king of DAE... This turns out to be a myth
Having read your post there I'm now what to think about it. What's your final opinion about it after all ?
I mean I too have both Plextor PX-W4012A and LTR-48125W,
so I'm really concened in finding out which one of these 2 is actually the best in DAEquality ?

Thanks in advance !
Upp3rd0G's Avatar
Upp3rd0G (CDFreaks Resident)
Posts: 2,116
Posted: 08-10-2002
It seems there are many factors which might influence the graphs and outcome of these tests so my preliminary results might not be correct...
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BoSkin's Avatar
BoSkin (CDFreaks Resident)
Posts: 5,606
Posted: 08-10-2002
Yeah, I kinda understand that. But anyway, I'd really appreciate it if you could tell me
which one of the drivers is in your view a better audio reader/ DA extracter.

Thanks again !
Upp3rd0G's Avatar
Upp3rd0G (CDFreaks Resident)
Posts: 2,116
Posted: 08-10-2002
I really can't say, they are both excellent drives. I still have faith in Plextor so I would take the Plextor...
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alexnoe (CDFreaks Resident)
Posts: 4,695
Posted: 08-10-2002
I don't understand the post by BobHere in that thread:
If there are too many C2 errors in one frame, then it's not possible to say which bytes are good or bad. The whole frame should then be considered bad.
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Asus P4C800E-Deluxe, Win XP, P4/2800 HT, 2048 MB RAM, 600 GB HDD, Plextor PX712/716/755/Premium, LG 4120B, Pioneer A08, Pioneer A09, NEC ND-3540A/4550A
------------------------------------------------
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!
How a troll wants to force users of Linux to buy Windows just to make use of Plextor DVD writer unique functions
------------------------------------------------
PxScan/PxView (compatible to Premium, PX-712, PX-714, PX-716), now with built-in picture file output
Bitsetting via Autostart
My Blog about DADVSI (new french copyright)
Upp3rd0G's Avatar
Upp3rd0G (CDFreaks Resident)
Posts: 2,116
Posted: 08-10-2002
I assume he is talking about E12 and E22 errors.
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Upp3rd0G's Avatar
Upp3rd0G (CDFreaks Resident)
Posts: 2,116
Posted: 23-10-2002
Here is an interesting quote from the EAC forum user BobHere

Quote:
That is a point of some discussion. There is no doubt that a correctly operating C2 error detection scheme will detect errors far more reliably than a double read system like EAC's non C2 secure mode. The issue is how good is the C2 reporting of the drives.

Almost all testing I have seen on C2 reporting has been under extreme circumstances (long black mark tests). The performance of C2 reporting revealed by these extreme tests may be affected by a number of factors that may have nothing to do with its own accuracy and more to do with how the drive responds to such extreme conditions. Most everyone would abandon a rip that had this level of damage.

The LTR40125s gives very good (almost perfect) C2 reporting even with these extreme tests. I have previously done some extensive testing of C2 and I am satisfied that it works perfectly on all three of my drives under normal conditions. In the absence of definitive test results the final decision is up to you.

Regards,
Bob
Here is another quote.

Quote:
The behaviour around a large black mark is difficult to describe without knowing how the chipset has been designed, these things are not laid down in stone in the Red Book standards. It will probably deviate from what is predicted by CIRC and it may be this that is causing some drives to test poorly to C2 reporting using Andre's test disc.

These are some questions that need answers to get a 100% understanding and be the God of DAE!

Does the drive mute?

If it mutes what is the trigger point to start and end a mute?

If it mutes, what algorithm does it use to prevent a click at the mute and demute points?

Does it have advanced interpolation and how does this work?

How does the drive resynch after a loss of synch? How many frame headers does it check, does it 'backtrack' after meeting its resych criteria (may relate to your question)?

Does the drive flag bad EFM symbols and mark them as erasures for the C1 decoder or does it pick the most likely answer and just hope.

What does the drive do with the data stream when it gets a HF optical output dropout (caused by the loss of return signal), does it act on this information to mark the data as erasures or pass it along as zeros or pass along bad data (at least at the transistion point)? At the transistion point does it mark individual symbols as erasures or does it mark the whole frame ( this may relate to a question you have asked about the beginning of the black mark). This dropout can also be detected in CIRC as both the audio data and parity data would be zeros which is not allowed in normal operation of the code (the parity symbols are inverted), I don't know whether this behaviour is specificed in Red Book.

There are probably many more.

So many possible combinations.
This all sound very plausible to me. A lot of factors are mentioned which might confuse the outcome of the DAE quality test...

For more info on technical issues concerning audio cds search for the posts of BobHere or Pio2001
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spath's Avatar
spath (Moderator)
Posts: 993
Posted: 23-10-2002
> For more info on technical issues concerning
> audio cds search for the posts of BobHere or
> Pio2001

This is hardly "info", more opinions and
guesses. Generally speaking, if you're looking
for technical accuracy, EAC forum is not a good
place. And for serious DAE quality tests stay
around, we're working on it.
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Leolo (New on Forum)
Posts: 14
Posted: 24-03-2003
Hi,

Excuse me, is there any news regarding those DAE quality tests?

Cheers.
BoSkin's Avatar
BoSkin (CDFreaks Resident)
Posts: 5,606
Posted: 24-03-2003
Quote:
Originally posted by Leolo

Excuse me, is there any news regarding those DAE quality tests?
Good point !
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spath's Avatar
spath (Moderator)
Posts: 993
Posted: 26-03-2003
> Excuse me, is there any news regarding those DAE quality tests?

ask G@M3FR3@K
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Leolo (New on Forum)
Posts: 14
Posted: 31-10-2003
Hi spath,

I'm afraid that the DAE quality tests are time-consuming and G@M3FR3@K hasn't had time to complete them.

But, could you please tell us some details about the tests?

Could we make them on our own using common software (like CDSpeed or DAEquality package by Andre) or is it necessary to have another utility?

Thanks a lot.
Regards.
spath's Avatar
spath (Moderator)
Posts: 993
Posted: 02-11-2003
These were tests with ABEX discs and CDSpeed
on various drives to measure C2 reporting
precision and audio extraction quality in general.
Unfortunately they never got finished, and only
someone with these ABEX discs could help.
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