Old 12-01-2005   #1
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Plextor 712, Plextools and Mitsui Gold CD-Rs

My main interest is making the highest quality audio CD-Rs. Have purchased 100 Mitsui Gold MAM-A (manufactured in Colorado) as my research indicates it is the best media for audio. Does anyone have experience with this media with Plextor 712 and Plextools? I am specifically interested in what are the best Plextool Vari Rec and Giga Rec settings for the MAM-A. Thanks.
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Old 12-01-2005   #2
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Re: Plextor 712, Plextools and Mitsui Gold CD-Rs

Hello atkinsonrr, and welcome to the forum.

I don't have Mitsui media, but I have heard of their good quality. In general, I suggest to use no VariRec.
As for GigaRec, I obtained good results
with a slightly "negative" GigaRec 0.8x (very similar to AAMR of the late Yamaha burners),
but only with good quality media (in my case TY media made by Verbatim).

Probably the best thing is to use yourself the Q-Check features of the 712A, poking around a bit with
No GigaRec/GigaRec 0.8x and different burning speeds,
to achieve the lowest number of C1 errors, and the lowest beta/jitter.

Hope this helps,

ET


P.S. Reports and scans in the Media Forum are very welcome of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by atkinsonrr
My main interest is making the highest quality audio CD-Rs. Have purchased 100 Mitsui Gold MAM-A (manufactured in Colorado) as my research indicates it is the best media for audio. Does anyone have experience with this media with Plextor 712 and Plextools? I am specifically interested in what are the best Plextool Vari Rec and Giga Rec settings for the MAM-A. Thanks.
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Old 12-01-2005   #3
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Re: Plextor 712, Plextools and Mitsui Gold CD-Rs

atkinsonrr, where did you purchase the Mitsui Gold's from? I used to use them all the time,(Gold and Silver) but lately I haven't seen many places that have them.
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Old 12-01-2005   #4
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Re: Plextor 712, Plextools and Mitsui Gold CD-Rs

Thanks, I will do the trial and error routine, and will also try .8 on the Gigarec. I tried .6 and it resulted in popping sounds (only on the first and second inside tracks) when played back on both my Sony SCD-1 and my cd player in my truck.
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Old 12-01-2005   #5
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Re: Plextor 712, Plextools and Mitsui Gold CD-Rs

Hitman--I think it was at datamediastore.com. I notice they now have a 5% off deal going on with free shipping.
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Old 12-01-2005   #6
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Re: Plextor 712, Plextools and Mitsui Gold CD-Rs

Are these the 24k dark golden ones that used to be Mitsui Gold Ultra II 24x ? These were the best (and most expensive) CD-R's I've ever burned ... hands down. And they look good, too

As for GigaRec 0.8 ... it is exactly the same as Yamaha's Audio Master Quality Recording (recording the disc at a slightly higher constant linear velocity and thus sacrificing some disc capacity) that was available with the discontinued drives CRW-3200E and CRW-F1.

But to be honest, I have yet to see any reproduceable improvements regarding BLER and jitter when using GigaRec 0.8 with HQ media ... so you will have to test fo yourself.
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Old 12-01-2005   #7
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Re: Plextor 712, Plextools and Mitsui Gold CD-Rs

Quote:
Originally Posted by atkinsonrr
Hitman--I think it was at datamediastore.com. I notice they now have a 5% off deal going on with free shipping.
Thanks for the info. They are showing a (100)Spindle for $118.90. That's about what they go for at sites I've seen in the past. Definitely not cheap, but they are very nice.

BTW, welcome to the forum.
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Old 12-01-2005   #8
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Re: Plextor 712, Plextools and Mitsui Gold CD-Rs

Red Book, IEC 908 standard:
Grade A (BLER < 6) -Highest quality
Grade B (BLER < 50) -Very good quality
Grade C (BLER < 100)-Good quality
Grade D (BLER < 220)-Bad quality
Grade F (BLER > 220) -Extremely bad quality

atkinsonrr! If your Mitsui are Mitsui Gold Ultra II 24x then they are Grade A+, but if they are Golden Dye (MAM-A Licensed Technology of MITSUI Chemicals,Inc.) they are Grade C- (Absolutely crap!)
The best CD-R for Audio are Taiyo Yuden!
As for GigaRec and VaryRec only your own ears is the best judgement. Don't trust Q-Check test. Burn the same disk twice @8X with GigaRec 0.8 and without GigaRec and listen to them. The disk that will give you the best pleasure from music is the best.
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Old 13-01-2005   #9
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Re: Plextor 712, Plextools and Mitsui Gold CD-Rs

JeanLuc--the Mitsui's I have are dark in that they are not "silvery-gold" like others I have seen. Not sure if they are the replacement for Ultra II's. I found out about these from an article you can find at genesisloudspeakers.com in which there is extensive discussion of the sound of certain CD-R types. The author found these to be about the best. The distinction he makes is Mitsui Gold made in Japan vs Mitsui Gold made in Colorado (the Colorado Mitsui being superior).
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Old 13-01-2005   #10
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Re: Plextor 712, Plextools and Mitsui Gold CD-Rs

Poaalpina-- I see you are right next door to me! As I mentioned to JeanLuc, I found out about these from an article you can find at genesisloudspeakers.com in which there is extensive discussion of the sound of certain CD-R types. The author found these to be about the best. He also ran Plextor tests. The distinction he makes is Mitsui Gold made in Japan vs Mitsui Gold made in Colorado (the Colorado Mitsui being superior). They also have the advantage of being very long lasting. By the way why do you suggest burning at 8x and not 4x?
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Old 13-01-2005   #11
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Re: Plextor 712, Plextools and Mitsui Gold CD-Rs

Quote:
Originally Posted by atkinsonrr
I found out about these from an article you can find at genesisloudspeakers.com in which there is extensive discussion of the sound of certain CD-R types. The author found these to be about the best. He also ran Plextor tests. The distinction he makes is Mitsui Gold made in Japan vs Mitsui Gold made in Colorado (the Colorado Mitsui being superior).
Did the author perform double blind tests (the only way to achieve objective results) with these different CD's ? If not, I would not trust these findings that much. Sound quality judgement is often accompanied by placebo effects if no blind testing is conducted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atkinsonrr
They also have the advantage of being very long lasting. By the way why do you suggest burning at 8x and not 4x?
Due to my personal findings, the Plextor Premium does perform better (in terms of BLER and the various jitter values) at recordings speeds in the range of 16x-24x when using quality media (that is certified for high speeds by the way). I used Plextools' Q-Check to find that my drive's "sweet spot" for Taiyo Yuden CD-R's is writing at 20x CLV, not 8x.
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Old 13-01-2005   #12
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Re: Plextor 712, Plextools and Mitsui Gold CD-Rs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poaalpina
atkinsonrr! If your Mitsui are Mitsui Gold Ultra II 24x then they are Grade A+, but if they are Golden Dye (MAM-A Licensed Technology of MITSUI Chemicals,Inc.) they are Grade C- (Absolutely crap!)
The best CD-R for Audio are Taiyo Yuden!
Poaalpina, MITSUI GOLD are for sale here:

http://blankmedia.ca/proddetail3.asp?id=360

at a reasonable price; do you think these are the lower grade ones? Your location makes shipping hopeless , but even with duty and shipping some of the Americans might find it good value - considering C$1 = $US 0.81.

FWIW, the same site also sells TY's...
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Old 13-01-2005   #13
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Re: Plextor 712, Plextools and Mitsui Gold CD-Rs

ftp1020! Are you laughing at me? Do you think that bears and foxes walking in the streets of my town? ) Please don't forget that Japan is very close to Sakhalin. I have friends there. If i could bought 57 disks of Frank Zappa (directly from Canada!) believe me that to buy any CD-r's is not a problem for me at all. And i work in the computer shop. We have now about 4000 pieces DVD+R Verbatim 16X and their price is very low.
OK, lets get serious and let me tell you my story. I'm 40 years old and listen to the MUSIC almost from my baby days. i remember than Aphrodite's Child release the album named 666. In early 80's i was a drummer in the rock band. My nephew is a guitarist(he is a student in conservatorium). I mixed a master tape for his album. My nearist friend is a guitarist too.If Steve Vai brakes his fingers (God save Him!), i know the guy who can replace him on stage!
So all this blah-blah-blah was only for understanding that i know how music is sounds.
When i've bought me a Plextor Premium the only thing i had to know was which speed is the best for making audio disks. I tried almost all speeds and all range of VaryRec.
And the best speed for me is 8x. How i did it: first i burned a backup of 10cc album "How Dare You" at 4X and listened to it. It was very clear sound BUT it was dead sound! Very very dead. I know this album for many years (my father bought vynil disk in New Zealand in 1976.) I remember those emotions and feellings that fills my soul and i flew with Mandy away away... I've bought this album on CD in 1991 and i wasn't impressed with the sound. Something is gone from the music. I know what is wrong with CDDA. Vynil is forever. Then i burned at 8X with GigaRec 0.8. Stop! Stop! It's came back! I'm flying with Mandy again! And the sandman's gonna get me, and I've never been kissed before and i know i never had the style or dash of Erroll Flynn...
BTW. Disk that was burned at 4X has lower error rate than that was burned at 8X.
That's why i said don't trust many on scans. Better trust your ears. Which speed gives you the best pleasure that is the best for you. Even if it will be 52X!

And here my result with MAM Mitsui Golden Dye:

And how Kprobe rates it:

[off topic] eltranquil! You said you liked my XP style. I've packed theme files and want to send them to you but you not aswered...
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Old 13-01-2005   #14
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Re: Plextor 712, Plextools and Mitsui Gold CD-Rs

you call that a good scan ?

audio discs should never ever contain C2 errors IMO ...
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Old 13-01-2005   #15
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Re: Plextor 712, Plextools and Mitsui Gold CD-Rs

JeanLuc! This scan is Mitsui Golden Dye. I said before that current Mitsui are crap.
I have posted my scan with Taiyo Yuden in the other thread.
And you can see that Kprobe rates it as C-
Forgot to add: This Mitsui was burned on Plextor Premium @8X.
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Old 14-01-2005   #16
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Re: Plextor 712, Plextools and Mitsui Gold CD-Rs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poaalpina
And you can see that Kprobe rates it as C-
C- is the general writing strategy for phtalocyanine dye on a golden reflector ... not the media quality
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Old 14-01-2005   #17
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Re: Plextor 712, Plextools and Mitsui Gold CD-Rs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poaalpina
ftp1020! Are you laughing at me? Do you think that bears and foxes walking in the streets of my town? ) Please don't forget that Japan is very close to Sakhalin.
Yes, but you are quite literally half a world away from me, and from blankmedia.ca to ship Mitsui discs to! And I better not say anything at all about bears wandering around town, especially if you Google Churchill + "Polar Bear". They even have a jail for the bears...

Quote:
...snipped a little...

So all this blah-blah-blah was only for understanding that i know how music is sounds.
When i've bought me a Plextor Premium the only thing i had to know was which speed is the best for making audio disks. I tried almost all speeds and all range of VaryRec.
And the best speed for me is 8x. How i did it: first i burned a backup of 10cc album "How Dare You" at 4X and listened to it. It was very clear sound BUT it was dead sound! Very very dead. I know this album for many years (my father bought vynil disk in New Zealand in 1976.) I remember those emotions and feellings that fills my soul and i flew with Mandy away away... I've bought this album on CD in 1991 and i wasn't impressed with the sound. Something is gone from the music. I know what is wrong with CDDA. Vynil is forever. Then i burned at 8X with GigaRec 0.8. Stop! Stop! It's came back! I'm flying with Mandy again! And the sandman's gonna get me, and I've never been kissed before and i know i never had the style or dash of Erroll Flynn...
BTW. Disk that was burned at 4X has lower error rate than that was burned at 8X.
I' m old enough to have had a reasonable vinyl collection in my day (100 records or so), and I've also heard that digital CDs sometimes sound 'flat' in comparison. But I can't honestly say I have noticed that on any of the records I replaced with a CD.

Just for testing purposes though, and because of what I've read from you and others about using Gigarec to make shorter length discs, I'll give it a try on the next one I do and let you know my impressions.

Quote:
And here my result with MAM Mitsui Golden Dye:
I realize this is the version of the Mitsui Gold you didn't like - no wonder, that scan is terrible. I can do much better than that with Ritek's that cost $0.19 each...
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Old 14-01-2005   #18
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Re: Plextor 712, Plextools and Mitsui Gold CD-Rs

@JanLuc. Because CD-R's grades as A B C D i was thought that disk type in Kprobe is disk grade. I checked in PlexTools VaryRec options and found recording strategies. They are Phthalocianine A,B,C,D. I mistook. You gave me another piece of knowledge. Thank you very much!
@ftp1020. I like Ritek too! Very good CD-R's. But i've bought 500 Verbatim Pastel disks for $0.20 per disk. So i don't need any others. TY's are the best.
Hope you will be impressed with GigaRec. But if you have Hi-End audio standalone then GigaRec will give you nothing. It is only good for Hi-Fi units.
BTW. Are you from Canada?
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Old 05-09-2005   #19
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Re: Plextor 712, Plextools and Mitsui Gold CD-Rs

Quote:
Originally Posted by ftp1020
Poaalpina, MITSUI GOLD are for sale here:

http://blankmedia.ca/proddetail3.asp?id=360

at a reasonable price; do you think these are the lower grade ones?
Their stock is running low. Has anyone tried them? Are they indeed Mitsui Gold Ultra II discs?

~Brian
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Old 15-09-2005   #20
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Re: Plextor 712, Plextools and Mitsui Gold CD-Rs

Quote:
Originally Posted by atkinsonrr
My main interest is making the highest quality audio CD-Rs. Have purchased 100 Mitsui Gold MAM-A (manufactured in Colorado) as my research indicates it is the best media for audio. Does anyone have experience with this media with Plextor 712 and Plextools? I am specifically interested in what are the best Plextool Vari Rec and Giga Rec settings for the MAM-A. Thanks.

In Europe the "Mitsui Gold" (Made in France) is this one:

http://www.mam-e.de/web/cdr_gold_med...rostudio.phtml
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Old 15-09-2005   #21
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Re: Plextor 712, Plextools and Mitsui Gold CD-Rs

..... but Plextor TY CDRs have error rates (average), which are only half as high as Mame-gold Prostudio (c1=0,9 for TY and c1=2,0 for Mam-e-gold Prostudio), burnt at 8x with Plextor Premium.
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