Which DVD-R media is best for long-term storage? [2006-2007]

Blank Media Discuss, Which DVD-R media is best for long-term storage? [2006-2007] at Consumables forum; Quote:

View Poll Results: Which DVD-R media is best for long-term storage?

CMC MAG. AE1 (8x DVD-R CMC)	13	2.19%
CMC MAG. AM3 (16x DVD-R CMC)	6	1.01%
DAXON008S (8x DVD-R Daxon)	4	0.67%
DAXON016S (16x DVD-R Daxon)	4	0.67%
FUJIFILM03 (8x DVD-R Fujifilm)	10	1.69%
MBI 01RG40 (16x DVD-R Moser Baer India)	2	0.34%
MBI 03RG40 (16x DVD-R Moser Baer India)	4	0.67%
MCC 02RG20 (8x DVD-R Mitsubishi / Verbatim)	92	15.51%
MCC 03RG20 (16x DVD-R Mitsubishi / Verbatim)	112	18.89%
MXL RG03 (8x DVD-R Maxell)	18	3.04%
MXL RG04 (16x DVD-R Maxell)	14	2.36%
OPTODISCR008 (8x DVD-R Optodisc)	3	0.51%
OPTODISCR016 (16x DVD-R Optodisc)	5	0.84%
ProdiscS04 (8x DVD-R Prodisc)	2	0.34%
ProdiscS05 (16x DVD-R Prodisc)	3	0.51%
RITEKF1 (16x DVD-R RiTEK)	9	1.52%
SONY 08D1 (8x DVD-R Sony)	20	3.37%
SONY 16D1 (16x DVD-R Sony)	29	4.89%
TTH01 (8x DVD-R TDK)	18	3.04%
TTH02 (16x DVD-R TDK)	20	3.37%
TYG02 (8x DVD-R Taiyo Yuden)	397	66.95%
TYG03 (16x DVD-R Taiyo Yuden)	297	50.08%
Other - please specify in a post	16	2.70%

Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 593. You may not vote on this poll

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Posted: 18-11-2006

#126

CJ2 (CDFreaks Resident): Posts: 957

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeardedKirklander

Your machine is possessed by an evil spirit...

At about 0,6 GB it kicks in

Anyway i agree that Verbatim is a very good place to start and pricewise the best. If it fails one can look for alternatives. It's far harder looking in the jungle of bad media to find the right than starting from the top. Only very few devices don't take top media

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Posted: 18-11-2006

#127

scoobiedoobie (CDFreaks Resident): Posts: 3,163

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJ2

At about 0,6 GB it kicks in

Yeah it's clearly a bad write strategy, although it has no problems with other media I've used in it - in fact TYG02 burns incredibly well with under 10k PIE and under 100 PIF the norm.

And I do agree that Verbatim is among the best media, probably along with 8x TY, as being the closest thing to working 'universally' well. But that's not to say that there is 'no reason' to consider alternatives as I point out in my first post, as there is no such thing as a 'universal' media as you can see. And of course there are other factors to consider such as stability, which is really what this thread is about as much as anything. Fortunately I'd say Verbatim is good in that regard as well, and quite possibly better than TY in that regard. I've suggested Verbatim many times myself, but I'm glad to use many different types of media that have worked very well in addition to Verbatim and in several cases better.

Posted: 18-11-2006

#128

BeardedKirklander (CD Freak): Posts: 2,949

Well, I did probably over-speak and generalize. Sorry about that.

Posted: 19-11-2006

#129

kg_evilboy (CD Freaks Boy Toy): Posts: 5,360

Looks like a Z-CLV burning strategy gone mad.
A firmware update may help. Or even a strategy swap with CMC MAG AE1?

Verbatim has its own problems too (we as Europe-zoners have to look at the COO, there are different plants making Verbies with different quality, and there are series like the Pearl White which are just relabled Ritek and CMC and not on par with the usual Verbatim quality).
I agree that it is the most foolproof way to get at least very good media though, and I usually recommend them.

I wouldn't recommend Taiyo Yuden to some John Doe non-CD Freak who just goes to those B&M stores aimed at the tech-non-savvy, who may even run into fakes and doesn't know what media and/or hub codes are like...

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Posted: 19-11-2006

#130

scoobiedoobie (CDFreaks Resident): Posts: 3,163

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_evilboy

Looks like a Z-CLV burning strategy gone mad.
A firmware update may help. Or even a strategy swap with CMC MAG AE1?

It's a standalone DVD Recorder without firmware upgradeability, so strategy swapping is not a possibility. And yes it's a shift spot in burn speed, most other media either improves slightly or remains roughly the same after the shift point but obviously not with these discs. Stranger yet is that I have some fake MCC02RG20 that burns acceptably in the recorder.

BTW in case anyone is interested, these are Prodisc-made MCC02RG20, and I've burned more than one to confirm it wasn't an isolated case of a single bad disc.

Regarding suggestions of TY, it's not as easy to recommend it to a 'noob' as Verbatim as it's not as simple as simply walking into a store and buying a given brand. About the least confusing way of suggesting it would be looking for MIJ/TY style spindles in the Fuji brand in the past with their 8x media, or going online and buying unbranded genuine TY from any number of reputable retailers. Verbatim certainly has the advantage in easy availability.

Posted: 19-11-2006

#131

megalomando (CD Freaks Rookie): Posts: 40

Quote:

Originally Posted by scoobiedoobie

Early Optodisc was poor, although their newer +R media seems much better (and although stability is not known, I think they've done ok in aging tests).

BTW, it looks like you wrote on those discs with a pen, I would not write on DVDs (certainly not CDs) with a ballpoint pen, although a felt tip pen would not be an issue. DVDs have an additional protective top layer that CDs do not have so if you write lightly it probably won't be a problem, but I still would try to avoid it. I'm not saying it was the cause of your problems, just thought I'd mention it.

I've always written with sharpies, never used a Ball Point on a disc but that's always an important point for those who don't know the difference.

Thanks for the suggestion!

Posted: 16-12-2006

#132

orangpelupa (New on Forum): Posts: 7

hmm, i use very cheap dvd-r, PRINCO8X02

its almost a year now, and its still perfect. i use it to backup my PS2 games

Posted: 16-12-2006

#133

Bob (Resident lunatic): Posts: 17,801

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangpelupa

hmm, i use very cheap dvd-r, PRINCO8X02

its almost a year now, and its still perfect. i use it to backup my PS2 games

Your lucky

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Posted: 30-12-2006

#134

johankh (CD Freaks Member): Posts: 137

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dolphinius_Rex

I would just like to comment on how horrible an idea it is to list "the best DVD-R media for longterm storage" options by MID code. Aside from the different grades available for each MID code, sometimes even under the same brand name, and ignoring the counterfeit MID codes... sometimes the same MID and quality disc can exist in various incarnations. Take Maxell for instance. MXLRG03 exists in Consumer Grade, Pro or Plus Grade (depending on your region), and then here in North America, we have BQ grade, which is a MXRG03 with a hardend coating for extra protection. I would vote for the BQ Maxell, but not the consumer grade Maxell.

TDK and MCC MIDs are also good examples of why it's a bad idea.

I'd also like to complain that MAM's Gold Archival discs aren't included on this list

and neither is Emtec's.

Are the scratchproof TDKs any good? Quite expensive but it would seem to be perfect discs if everything the resistance is good aswell

Posted: 31-12-2006

#135

DrageMester (Retired Moderator): Posts: 17,858

* * Moved some posts to another thread: Saving content from damaged DVDs? * *

Posted: 31-12-2006

#136

johankh (CD Freaks Member): Posts: 137

Quote:

Originally Posted by scorpioprod

What are people's opinions on MAM-A gold DVD-Rs for archival storage?

I was suprised to see that manufacturer not listed in the poll and only one mention of it in all the postings in this thread.

I've been using MAM4XG02 for an archive project for my university. I had talked with MAM-A representatives at the NAB show last year, and they convinced me of their merit, but then again, they're salesmen, or course.

Theoretically, a gold reflective surface certainly would resist oxidation, but more importantly, they are supposed to have a really good dye. Since the odds are most organic dyes would fail before reflective surface oxidation anyway.

I burned some of these discs initially at 4X, and they burned fine, and the PI/PIF testing I did on them was good. It wasn't as great as the TYG02 media I normally use, but it was good. Actually, TYG02 burned at 4X or 8X showed better PI/PIF scans than the MAM4XG02 at 4X. But I've read that initial PI/PIF scans really don't say anything about long-term stability.

Then I hit a problem, I had some 4X burns fail from this same batch of MAM4XG02 media. I ran some PI/PIF scans on the failed burns, and oh yeah, they went off the scale bad.

I saw MAM-A exibiting at another show and asked them about it, and they told me, since the discs are made for archive use, I should burn slower, 1X or 2X, even though the discs were rated for 4X. In my opinion, that's a pretty bogus answer if the discs are rated at 4X, but OK, I want my archive to last, so, I've burned since then at 2X, and they have been burning fine, and PI/PIF scans come up like they did for the successful 4X burns, good, but no better than the good 4X burns.

So do any of you have any experiences with these? I'm literally spending $2 each on these, and that is worth it for this job IF they are as good as they claim to be.

And a second question is how slow should one really burn for an optimum archive life? I don't mind burning these at 1X if that's best, but I've also read articles that suggest slower burning of higher speed rated discs isn't always a good thing to do.

Thanks for any info or experiences on these two questions.

At $0.5/GB shouldn't a harddrive be cheaper? I don't know what will last the longest time but =P

I guess tapes are more expensive?

Posted: 31-12-2006

#137

Dolphinius_Rex (CD Freaks Senior Member): Posts: 520

Quote:

Originally Posted by johankh

At $0.5/GB shouldn't a harddrive be cheaper? I don't know what will last the longest time but =P

I guess tapes are more expensive?

Harddrives are horrible for long term archival storage. Way too many moving parts, and when a HDD dies it has a possability of having the heads crash and doing irreperable damage to the platter. I would never trust a harddrive for anything important.

A library once had the brilliant idea of using HDDs for archiving data. They would fill up the drives, take them out and store them on nice little shelves all safe and sound. A couple years later they found some of them had seized up, and were very difficult and expensive to recover the data from. They went back to using recordable media after that (I believe it was tape storage actually). I got this story from Maxell

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Posted: 02-01-2007

#138

anikk (MyCE Senior Member): Posts: 480

Just a question, since I don't understand it. Several tests have shown that Phthalocyanine media is the only stable dye for longer time at 85°C. How does this fit to the result here at the forum preferring MCC Azo or even TY Cyanine dye, which is the worst in those climate tests. Everything looks like MAM-A Phthalocyanine discs are the best ones for archiving. Not because they are by MAM-A or anything, but because they have a Phthalocyanine dye with a reflective layer made from gold AND silver. Why don't such discs even appear in the list?

One of those tests mentioned: http://www.itl.nist.gov/div895/gipwo...ilityStudy.pdf

And look at this! Look at the chart in this document. Verbatim is claimin the exact opposite. This is unbelievable! http://www.verbatim-europe.com/inclu...ils.php?id=454

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Posted: 02-01-2007

#139

kg_evilboy (CD Freaks Boy Toy): Posts: 5,360

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dolphinius_Rex

A couple years later they found some of them had seized up, and were very difficult and expensive to recover the data from. They went back to using recordable media after that (I believe it was tape storage actually). I got this story from Maxell

I have heard quite a few horror stories from MIJ Maxell too (bubbles in the dye, awful degradation) however I don't have much first hand experience with it, and the first hand experience I had was mostly positive.

I have got this screenshot from a German DVD forum and was surprised, as the poster claimed it to be original Maxell...

georgekellerman: The dye does not make the disc. Polycarbonate, reflectivity, stamper quality... just maybe have a little, slight, small (but very noticeable) impact on the disc's quality?

Phthalocyanine is so widespread that most second tier and noob manufacturers use it, while Azo and Cyanine (the supposedly more difficult dyes) are only used by manufacturers who know their business and want to make quality media.
Don't forget that MAM-A media is expensive, and most users have noticed that MAM-A's quality is getting worse and worse, but YMMV.

Attached Images

PX 708_MXL_RG02.png (68.8 KB, 308 views)

Posted: 02-01-2007

#140

kg_evilboy (CD Freaks Boy Toy): Posts: 5,360

Studies often include media which is not sold and produced anymore, as a stability study needs some time. In the meantime, the manufacturers could have completely changed the "recipe" for their discs.

EDIT: The German c't magazine once made a test with Plextor TY CD-R, Verbatim Azo CD-R (both Super Azo made in India and Metal Azo made in China), and CMC CD-R.

Stability:
Plextor TY: very good (++)
CMC: good (+)
Verbatim Azo: not good (--)

TY's cyanine is not the worst dye. This is untrue. Most information related to dye stability is already several years old and does not reflect the current developments.

Posted: 02-01-2007

#141

Dolphinius_Rex (CD Freaks Senior Member): Posts: 520

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_evilboy

As an example, I don't think MAM-A has used Phthalocyanine in their DVDRs since their 2x media. They deffinately haven't been making their own stampers since their true 4x media. Their current 4x media is all made with 16x MID codes too

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Posted: 03-01-2007

#142

anikk (MyCE Senior Member): Posts: 480

Yes and just let me say that it's not me who was saying that the TY dye is bad in terms of archival data life, I just say that the test says so. And when I said it's "unbelievable" about Verbatim's chart, I didn't mean that it's unbelivable that Verbatim claims something. What is unbelievable is, that we have a study done by the US government (correct me if I'm wrong, I think to know that NIST is the time research institution of the US) which I don't see any reason not to believe in its results. And on the other side we have MCC, which I think of being a very reliable company. So what I meant with "unbelievable" is my situation as a customer, being totally confused about the two completely different results. And again, what makes me being critical about the Verbatim chart and made me bringing up this whole question is the fact that there is that NIST study and its results.

I didn't know that TY now is a mix with Phthalocyanine. As I understand it, adding Phthalocyanine was done only a few years ago. Is this an indication that what you have said, kg_evilboy, is exactly right in this case too. Can it generally be said that Cyanine needs the Phthalocyanine to be stable for archiving and that NIST tested an old TY without Phthalocyanine? And what about MCC? How can I know whether Phthalocyanine+gold+silver is among those other dyes in their chart, how can I know whether even TY is among those other dyes in their chart, and as a result, how can I know how much their chart is saying about their hq competitors?

Posted: 03-01-2007

#143

Dolphinius_Rex (CD Freaks Senior Member): Posts: 520

Quote:

Originally Posted by georgekellerman

Ok, you need to qualify whether or not you're speaking about CD-Rs or DVDRs...

For DVDRs, Taiyo Yuden is using Azo, not Cyanine or Phthalocyanine. Actually, I don't think ANYONE uses Phthalocyanine for DVDRs anymore, it was just too difficult to make work at speeds in excess of 2x.

As for the NIST study, it is VERY outdated now, and most of the media used no longer exists. The one CD-R used that was Gold+Silver Phthalocyanine was actually a Kodak Ultima Gold CD-R (long long LONG discontinued). Also, no manufacturer on the NIST list is making media at the same quality level anymore, especially on the CD-R side.

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Posted: 03-01-2007

#144

kg_evilboy (CD Freaks Boy Toy): Posts: 5,360

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dolphinius_Rex

For DVDRs, Taiyo Yuden is using Azo, not Cyanine or Phthalocyanine. Actually, I don't think ANYONE uses Phthalocyanine for DVDRs anymore, it was just too difficult to make work at speeds in excess of 2x.

As for the NIST study, it is VERY outdated now, and most of the media used no longer exists. The one CD-R used that was Gold+Silver Phthalocyanine was actually a Kodak Ultima Gold CD-R (long long LONG discontinued). Also, no manufacturer on the NIST list is making media at the same quality level anymore, especially on the CD-R side.

Thanks Dolphin

For CD-R, Taiyo Yuden is using cyanine (Type 1, Long Strategy). AFAIK, they don't use phthalocyanine.

Several different types of TY CD-R are still in production (71 minute, 74 minute 32x (for Audio), 74 minute 48x, 80 minute 32x (for Audio), 80 minute 48x...) and different dyes are used (called P Dye (16x), Tuned-X (32x), DX Dye (48x) by SMART-BURN and officially Cyanine (12x), Super Cyanine (16x), Super Cyanine 2 (32x), Super Cyanine RV (40x)...), but I don't know more details about that. ->

Posted: 03-01-2007

#145

anikk (MyCE Senior Member): Posts: 480

I see clearer now. Thanks Dolphinius, kg for explaining.

And sorry for not specifying, I'm talking about both actually, since I assumed that the three dye types discussed could be used for CDs and DVDs having similar benfits/problems with both kinds of formats. The truth is that I trust CDs more than DVDs, but I have to use DVDs due to the amount of data I have to archive. So in retrospect I was talking about DVDs and not about CDs.

Posted: 04-01-2007

#146

heffeque (CD Freaks Member): Posts: 169

Taiyo Yuden p0wnz!!!!11!!!111!1oneoneone!eleven!!!twelve!!
MCC are good too ;-)

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Posted: 21-01-2007

#147

uk1and (New on Forum): Posts: 24

After having big problems with G04's fading after 6 months, today I've quickly scanned my discs to see which ones are fading.

The few TY's I have are still OK, but the most surprising (to me) is some cheapo Bulkpaq 4x Orange Generation 4 DVD-R (SKC Co.,Ltd.) discs that my DVD player wouldn't read so I just used for rubbish... nearly two years later a PI/PIF scan brings up results as good as a freshly burnt G04.

Maybe some of the cheaper discs are better in the long run????

Posted: 21-01-2007

#148

DrageMester (Retired Moderator): Posts: 17,858

Hi uk1and, welcome to CDFreaks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by uk1and

Maybe some of the cheaper discs are better in the long run????

I wouldn't use this as a rule of thumb.

A higher price doesn't guarantee better quality however, and the RiTEK G04 and especially RiTEK G05 are known for their poor longevity.

Posted: 14-03-2007

#149

Halcyon (MyCE Resident): Posts: 503

A voting poll like this amounts to not much more than noise.

But hey, it passes the time and I think the discussion is worth it. I've already learned new things (thanks Dolph!)

However, as Dolphin has correctly pointed out:

- no up-to-date measurements for current dye formulations, stampers & manufacturers exist for DVD-R/DVD-R media.

- just going by the dye formulation alone does not always give the correct picture of the situation as several other factors play into dvd stability other than just the dye (reflective layer, bonding, manufacturing tolerances, batch QC, burning strategy, burning drive, burning speed, etc.)

- most manufacturers do not test their disc longevity using the recent industry standard (ISO18927) methodology. This means two things: 1) results between manufacturers are NOT comparable. 2) even results from a single manufacturer are suspect and can be incorrect with several decades in their longevity estimates. BTW, often manufacturers use the statistical 50% survivability probability for their rating, meaning that a disc that is rated for say 60 years of life (in proper archival conditions) has a 50% probability of being readable after 60 years. This is imho, misleading to an ordinary consumer who is not well versed in statistical methods (and doesn't know the full distribution curve).

- HDs are quite bad as long term storage platforms, because of: magnetic instability, moving parts and with modern drives: fluid bearing. If you don't use a drive for a long time, the fluid bearings tend to dry out. The disc might be otherwise intact, but it refuses to spin. Good luck with the clean room and quantum microscope though.

- CDs can in fact be more reliable (according to NIST/OSTA) for longer term storage than the DVDs tested. Especially if we could still get those Gold Kodaks or similar discs. Still, I don't think the MAM-A Archival Gold (300 year rated) CD-R is bad at all, but as stated it's future is may also be uncertain. That's what I use and recommend to all archival specialists (for cd-r storage).

- There is a common misconception that data does not need to stay alive for more than 5-10 years, because the drives become obsolete anyway and you don't have devices capable of reading the media anyway. Well, let's see: analog magnetic tape has been in wide use ever since the 60's and you can still get new playback devices to playback your stuff. That's almost 50years. Even CDs are now going for almost 30 years and the universal hd/blu-ray/dvd/cd playback devices will give them at least another 15-20 years of usable reading devices.

- The latest data (ISO18927 methodology) I've seen was for an Imation dvd disc that had 95% survivability for 39.8 years (NIST co-study). However, I don't know which exact disc model this is and if it's even for sale (yet).

The testing I performed with a fellow expert (discs from 2005) show that the following discs handled high relative humidity and high temp the best (19 disc sampling of 4x, 8x and 16x dvd-r/dvd+r/dvd-rw/dvd+rw discs):

- Verbatim DVD-RW 4x @ 4x (MCC 01RW4x)
- Maxell DVD-R 16x @ 16x (MXL RG04)
- Ricoh DVD+R 8x @ 8x (RICOHJPN-R02-03)
- TDK Scratch Proof DVD-R 8x @ 8x (TDK-002-00)
- Ricoh DVD+RW 8x @ 8x (RICOHJPN-W21-01)

Now, a couple things are worth noting: RW discs seem to be fairly stable on the short-to-mid-term, even though phase change, PROVIDED they are of high quality. Japanese discs (esp. Made in Japan) tend to fair fairly well. BTW, TY (authentic YUDEN000-T03-00) did not. It was a disappointment starting from the quality of the initial scans after the burn.

Out of those discs that faired well in accelerated aging, two faired well in UV stress test (tested/measured separately, just to find out uv stability):

- Verbatim DVD-RW 4x @ 4x (MCC 01RW4x)
- Maxell DVD-R 16x @ 16x (MXL RG04)

This is just a small sampling of the whole test, the big picture if of course, much more complex. Also, the data is by no means final or conclusive as further accelerated aging would probably have brought even more variance between the contenders.

However, it's safe to say imho, that is you can still get your hands of Maxell (Made in Japan) discs, if they are even being made (haven't checked), then you are probably fairly well of for a 10-15 years worth of storage, esp. if you store them nicely.

Of course, longevity-freak would perhaps offer an alternative opinion to this. Fortunately most of us don't live in continuous 95RH/32C environment

cheers,
halcyn

Posted: 14-03-2007

#150

heffeque (CD Freaks Member): Posts: 169

Some Princo DVDs are dyeing on me. Good thing I only had a few of them.

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