Old 05-12-2005   #51
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

Wait... it was asked earlier if media deteriorates faster when burned or unburned... I don't think anyone answered...

A simmilar question... If a burned DVD-R is suposed to last say 60 years... but a unburned only is good for 7... What exactly is that saying? Are you guys really telling us that a 7 year old un-burned DVD-R will not be able to be burned when it's 7.5 years old? And/or does the dyes ablity to be changed by laser really deteriorate faster then the dyes ablity to be read?

Some of this sounds ... odd to me.

Meanwhile... What is this with people having discs go bad in only a few years? What kind of disks? My earliest DVDs were recorded about 2 years ago or so, and all are in good shape... These are primarly RICOH JPN02 media... and honesly I see no signs of any problems, based on sanns I've done with a BenQ 1640...

I've also got CD-R that are 8 years old on TDK media, and it too is holding up very well...

You guys who say you lost data in a couple years scare me... but do you have any indication that the data was recorded well to begin with and detriorated so badly, or is it possible/probable that the burns were marginal when they were new?
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Old 05-12-2005   #52
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

Anyway... just to be safe from unburned deterioration I'm not stocking up to far in advance... It doesn't make that much sense to me anyway... I mean media is always getting more afordable... so todays great deal may not look so good compared to next months great deal...
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Old 05-12-2005   #53
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

There are no hard rules here, despite all of the scientific studies. There are an infinite number of variables, from all the variables in storage conditions, to media type, to a specific disc's quality or batch quality, to initial burn quality, etc. etc.

Some people have had discs go bad in a few months or years, burned or unburned. Others have had no deterioration. There is no simple answer here. I've had discs that burned great with excellent PI/PIF tests initially, only to fail later. I've had discs that scan as well now as the day I burned them. I can't honestly say that I've found any of my LARGE amount of unburned media from all sorts of media codes and varying quality actually deteriorate over time, but I know that others have apparently had this problem. Even some of my cheapest generic media still burns the same as it did when I bought it.
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Old 06-12-2005   #54
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

My understanding is that unburned media does not last as long as burned media; it has a much shorter lifespan. RW is an entirely different case. RW lasts no where near as long either way.
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Old 06-12-2005   #55
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chas0039
My understanding is that unburned media does not last as long as burned media; it has a much shorter lifespan. RW is an entirely different case. RW lasts no where near as long either way.


Dye in it's final (burnt) state won't can't expose (easily).

Dye in it's unburnt state is supposed to expose, that's how it works.

Any exposure to sunlight/whatever will cause dye defects in unbrutn media relatively quickly. Lots of exposure to sunlight on a burnt disc will do the same, but, since it's already burnt, it takes a fair bit more exposure.
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Old 06-12-2005   #56
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by debro


Dye in it's final (burnt) state won't can't expose (easily).

Dye in it's unburnt state is supposed to expose, that's how it works.

Any exposure to sunlight/whatever will cause dye defects in unbrutn media relatively quickly. Lots of exposure to sunlight on a burnt disc will do the same, but, since it's already burnt, it takes a fair bit more exposure.
There you have it from the source. Thanks for the confirmation; now I feel more confident. Lock those puppies away in the dark.
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Old 06-12-2005   #57
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by debro


Dye in it's final (burnt) state won't can't expose (easily).

Dye in it's unburnt state is supposed to expose, that's how it works.

Any exposure to sunlight/whatever will cause dye defects in unbrutn media relatively quickly. Lots of exposure to sunlight on a burnt disc will do the same, but, since it's already burnt, it takes a fair bit more exposure.
The problem with that theory is that (in my understanding) the disc is not uniformly "burnt". I thought that only one state (say the ones) were "burnt" and the complementary state (the zero's in this case) were left unburnt, with the difference in reflectivity between the two states allowing the data to be read.
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Old 07-12-2005   #58
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

I'm pretty sure that the whole disc is burnt, but the difference in laser strength causes a different effect in pits or lands.

It's not as simple as burnt & unburnt. Might need to check out the technical forum for more info
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Old 07-12-2005   #59
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

Media will deteriorate, but you have to separate everything out.

Dye-based media, like CD-R, will take a couple decades to degrade. Because DVD-R and DVD+R media is sandwiched between plastic, it should last a bit longer. You have two things to worry about, the foil and the dyes. Each dye can be different, AZO, cyanine, cyanine derivatives, organics, or compounds of any of these. One problem is tests show the better discs may dye fast, but the longer-lasting discs don't read real well even when they are "good" (pthalycyanine supposedly outlasting azo, for example).

HOWEVER ...... all this talk of discs dying in a few months is almost always bogus. The person usually has a cheap disc that was never very good, or the laser is dying, or the disc was never good to begin with (TEST YOUR DISCS AFTER BURNING!).

And I don't mean the PIF/PIE stuff, but watch the discs. See how many players can play them, how many can play them while FF-PLAY or REW-PLAY. Run surface scans. Everything you can. It takes time, so you will likely ONLY want to do it on the most valuable discs. And then be sure to copy valuable items 2-3 times on various top-rated media (a TY, a MXL, and an MCC disc, for example). Remember that those PI tests, the "scanning" of discs, is only a rough estimate, and can change from scan to scan. It's not accurate proof of anything, just a guideline of how the drive is interacting with the media, and what it sees or think it sees. It not uncommon to have a good scan on a bad disc, or a bad scan on a good disc. People get too attached to those things. Value the test for what it can do, don't put it on a pedestal and worship it.

A dye-based media should last for several decades at minimum, if stored correctly. This means even small things, like making sure your DVD case does not warp the disc (a lot of those cheap crappy cases warp discs by pulling too hard on the center).

Phase change media is different, your CD-RW, DVD-RW and DVD+RW. Maybe even DVD-RAM to an extent (yes, contrary to the "100 years" crap you get in the marketing pamphlets ... lots of companies are learning this one the hard way). Those discs are intended for temporary use only, to rewrite, and they can die in a few months, used or not. It's usually very easy to spot a bad disc, look for craters in the writing surface. The craters are seen in the dark gray surface as darker gray little spots.

As far as UNBURNED media, I've heard that 6-12 months is optimal. But I have some PVC media that was manufactured in 2003 that burns better than even the newest TY or MCC discs. Again, it probably comes down to disc quality. All of my unused blanks are in a box, in jewel cases, hidden from light. Light is the major enemy with unused blanks.
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Old 07-12-2005   #60
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

What do you think about gas being a possible cause of dye degradation? It has been sugested that humidity can effect the life of they dye layer (if I recall right some verbatium testing had to do with heat and humidity). If humididty can effect the dye, then the dye layer is not sealed. Now this part is just a wild guess on my part, but there has been extensive testing on printer ink and one thing that can cause substantially accelerated degradation on printer inks are certain gases. Printers that use toner for instance are known to give off such gases and can kill ink prints in months or even weeks, where they should have easilly lasted years (such as an inkjet printed photo displayed in an office near a laser printer).
Do you think gases could effect disk dyes in a similar manner?
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Old 07-12-2005   #61
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ripit
What do you think about gas being a possible cause of dye degradation? It has been sugested that humidity can effect the life of they dye layer (if I recall right some verbatium testing had to do with heat and humidity). If humididty can effect the dye, then the dye layer is not sealed.
Water molecules can penetrate the polycarbonate and interact with the dye. This is why humidity matters.
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Old 07-12-2005   #62
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

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Water molecules can penetrate the polycarbonate and interact with the dye. This is why humidity matters.
I wasn't aware that pollycarbonite was that permeable? If it is though, I would think that it would be gas permeable too?
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Old 07-12-2005   #63
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

Maybe we should be storing our media both burned and unburned in air/water tite boxes like say a Pelican case... ???

Personaly I've had excelent sucsess with the redablity over time of my CD-R collection, and even my DVD-R collection... I've got year old RICHO00 R01 disks that seem to record as good today as they did a year ago... and viceversa... Now I keep them in a dark closet with averge temps of around 70F +- 10 and less then 60% humidity... I've got 8 year old CD-R data that's held up very well in my basement which is more like 65F and < 60% humidity.
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Old 07-12-2005   #64
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

Personaly, I don't take any special precautions. I leave my media (burned or un burned) on a shelf and I have no problems (I have ricohjpnr01 that is a couple years old that still burns fine). I have scaned a few old disks (burned as long as 2 years ago or more) and no problems. Its the same for dyes in inkjet prints (I don't experience fading problems). Some of it could be coincidence. I run the air conditioning almost year round (so they are in a cool, resonably dry place as air conditioning reduces humididty). I use flouresent lighting (the kind that just screw into a regular light bulb socket), not to protect anything, but just because they use a lot less electricity. Flouresent lighting has been shown (with printer dyes anyway) to be substantially less damaging than incandesent lights. As far as trace gases, that damage prints and I'm guessing might damage disk dyes, the majority of people do not have problems with them (with prints anyway), but as they can be naturally occuring, there are still more than a few people that do have problems, even if they do not have devices that create them.

I would say, if you are not having problems, don't worry about it. If you are, maybe you should look at humidity, heat, light (known to damage disks), gas exposure (I'm therorizing it may play a part in it). Even keeping prints in sleeves or behind glass in a frame can help so perhaps certain kinds of storage (like certain kinds of cd wallets that use sleeves) might help, even if they are not completly air tight. Sealed boxes like pelican cases might be a good idea too, especially if you are having a lot of problems with disks decaying/loosing quality.
If you have important data that will be stored away for a while, while this is going to the extreme and probably not nesasary for the majority, you could even go so far as to use silica gel packs in the sealed container to reduce humidity (and I think some of them might absorb oxygen too), and could even try purging some of the air by displacment (canned air might work, but I'm just thinking out loud here and have no idea if the gas in canned air is damaging to dye so it could make things worse). Obviously this is the extreme and not nesasary for most, but if you are having problems with disks dying, perhaps some measures on how you store them might help?
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Old 07-12-2005   #65
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf
HOWEVER ...... all this talk of discs dying in a few months is almost always bogus. The person usually has a cheap disc that was never very good, or the laser is dying, or the disc was never good to begin with (TEST YOUR DISCS AFTER BURNING!).
I'm sorry, but you obviously do not live in a tropical climate. Over here humidity can reach 85% on a normal day. These are obviously not the conditons the discs were manufactured to be used under or to last under. It is obvious that nobody can control the weather, so living with these conditions is not something that can be changed. Over here some people have indeed experienced discs which die in 2 months. The chief culprit seems to be the high humidity levels. Case in point, have a look at this guy's overly documented experiences (several month's worth) :

http://forums.hardwarezone.com/showthread.php?t=991675

He has tried all kinds of discs from really good stuff like TY and Verbatim to cheap stuff. They have all failed on him in a matter of months. By "failed" I mean the discs were not readable and he could not retrieve the data. There are endless scans there as well for anyone who wants to see them. It seems the only way he can store discs safely is to keep them in air tight boxes with controlled humidity levels.
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Old 08-12-2005   #66
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

All I see in that hardwarezone thread is a mule that did a sloppy test. He is convinced that A+B=C without even doing the most basic proofs on the equation.

Humidity will more than likely accellerate aging, but again, this "3-6 months" sort of talk is way off base. High humidity is not proper storage anyway. And if something will ruin media dye that fast, that I can imagine his whole house falling apart, from shingles to printer paper. I would imagine the walls of the house sweating.
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Old 08-12-2005   #67
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf

HOWEVER ...... all this talk of discs dying in a few months is almost always bogus. The person usually has a cheap disc that was never very good, or the laser is dying, or the disc was never good to begin with (TEST YOUR DISCS AFTER BURNING!).
Ritek G05 last Spring is an exception, as many of us had direct experience with drastic media deterioration after just 3 months from very good burns (yes, tested with more than just scans) to unreadable discs. These were stored in a dry dark place and were burned on a number of different drives with other discs burned at the same time showing no signs of any trouble. The current guess is that these had bad seals and air was getting to the dye.
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Old 08-12-2005   #68
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf
All I see in that hardwarezone thread is a mule that did a sloppy test. He is convinced that A+B=C without even doing the most basic proofs on the equation.

Humidity will more than likely accellerate aging, but again, this "3-6 months" sort of talk is way off base. High humidity is not proper storage anyway. And if something will ruin media dye that fast, that I can imagine his whole house falling apart, from shingles to printer paper. I would imagine the walls of the house sweating.
If the place is humid, the temperature is already quite high, and if people are dumb enough to leave CD's/DVD's lying around .. they get what they deserve.

Even a basic CD/DVD wallet will keep the moisture out of the internals, if not the heat.

Exposure due to shipping is different. I'd expect some form of defect to be present at time of burning.
Cargo containers are subject to salt, water, heat, sunlight and basically anything which the sky f(or ocean) eels like throwing at it. Couple that with rough treatment by wharfies .... nuff said.
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Old 08-12-2005   #69
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chas0039
The current guess is that these had bad seals and air was getting to the dye.
The problem with this is that air touching dye is an immediate effect that can be seen with your own two eyes. It rainbows the dye. If you want to see this effect, smash a disc against concrete and look at the pretty colors. It's not possible for air to touch a disc and cause a gradual issue (this is why they are vacuum sealed to begin with). Are there destoyed areas in the dye visible to the naked eye on those RITEK discs? Poor glue can come cause the plastics to come loose and expose the dye. I've seen it on MATRIX discs before, but there was a very visible ruined area.
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Old 08-12-2005   #70
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

I just pulled a dvd stored in a standard DVD case. Same type used when you purchase them. It has been stored that way since it was burnned on Jan. 16, 2003. This info was obtained by DVDInfo. The disk is a DVD-R Samsung BeAll media code G00001. When purchased this disk had a 100 year warranty. I tried to obtain the best disk`s available. I do not know how they can state it will last 100 years but they did.

I tried to play the DVD in 3 different standalone players ( Sony, Cyberhome and RCA ) All 3 failed to play the disk.

I tried to Rip in back to the HD with DVDD and a Benq 1620 and a 1640. No luck at all, the disk kept spinning in the drives.

I tried one more drive. I found my old Pioneer AO6 put it in a usb 2 case.
The pioneer ripped the contents bact to the HD without any problem.
I reburned the movie and it`s playing fine.

It looks like older DVD`s burned on earlier DVD burners and software may give problems with newer burners or readers.

Keep your old burner.

Thoughts please

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Old 08-12-2005   #71
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

I think that is just variation between equipment. Some players dont like disk burned by certain burners. Some don't like certain media. The burns and media quality can be exelent, but as far as I am concerned, there is just too much variation between all the equipment and media. I think that is why there is no concensus for the best equipment or media. I say, keep all your equipment, new or old. Even if it is spare, let it sit on a shelf, you may need it again, and it will cost a decent bit more to replace it than you got for it on ebay.
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Old 08-12-2005   #72
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

@Dynomohum, if you are looking for discs that deteriorate after only a year or two (or less) look no further than some of the newer Ritek DVD-R discs, or Princo. Seen people who have had entire spindles of Princo media become unreadable after less than a year. As for the unburnt media not lasting as long, I have experienced that first hand. Although not with DVD-R, it was with Prodisc CD-R. I had them safely tucked away and stored for less than 2 years and so far out of the 25 discs that I have burned from the spindle, 10 of them have been coasters.
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Old 09-12-2005   #73
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf
The problem with this is that air touching dye is an immediate effect that can be seen with your own two eyes. It rainbows the dye. If you want to see this effect, smash a disc against concrete and look at the pretty colors. It's not possible for air to touch a disc and cause a gradual issue (this is why they are vacuum sealed to begin with). Are there destoyed areas in the dye visible to the naked eye on those RITEK discs? Poor glue can come cause the plastics to come loose and expose the dye. I've seen it on MATRIX discs before, but there was a very visible ruined area.
Well, there is no visible change so there goes the air theory.
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Old 11-12-2005   #74
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Re: Does blank DVD deteriorate?

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well if the advice is put it in a cool dark place i'll stick mine in the fridge
Put them in some air vacuumed ziplocks and throw them in the freezer (this goes for burned discs too)
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