Please Help: CD/DVD Storage Damaging Disks

txenglan · 11-08-2012

I've been reading/searching through the forums but haven't seen my particular issue mentioned. Recently, while quality scanning some old media, I was shocked to discover that an alarming percentage of my burned DVD disks (all high quality media) had incredibly high PIE/PIFs. Disk after disk displayed the same scan results, regardless of brand. Also, I noticed that the scans generally seemed to yield high PIE/PIF after hitting the 3GB mark.

I inspected one disk closely and noticed a strange dot/smudge pattern in a very regular patterned distribution on the read side of the disk. Then, I realized that ALL my disks (in that particular CD folder) had the same pattern. Finally, I recognized that the pattern matched up perfectly to a small, curved plastic lip/tab that protruded down about 1 inch behind every disk placed in that particular folder. The lip was made out of the same transparent, finely-"dotted/bumpy" plastic that forms the pouches that holds all the disks in (from the printed side). Thus, 95% of the read side of the disk would be touching a cloth-like material (that left no mark) but on every disk, there was an ugly, parabolic-shaped area where the plastic lip seemed to have "melted" or "rotted" the read side of the disk. I tried cleaning a number of the disks but I cannot seem to get the strange blocthy/dots off. It is as if the plastic from the CD/DVD folder has actually reacted chemically with the read surface of each disk!

I am almost certain that the disks are actually fine and that I only need get rid of the strange "blotchiness" but try as I might, I can't seem to get it off. If in fact it is a chemical reaction, I suppose it might not be able to be taken off. I can try to take a photo or two but I'm not sure if the effect will be visible (I had to look quite closely to even notice it). In any case, I'm thinking that someone on here will have run into this before and will likely know what is going on from my description alone...

I've now got 100+ disks that exhibit this issue and I am quite worried about it. These are disks that were all next to flawless burns that now (superficially) get "0" scores with a Nero quality scan. Any insight/info/recommendations would be much appreciated!

*CDan* · 11-08-2012

Discs stored in "wallet" type folders are often subject to this type issue. About all you can do is remove them from this storage and wait to see if they improve. Plastic can react to other plastic, it's all petroleum-based material. Stack the discs on a spindle without a cover and see if they improve. Another thing that happens to DVDs stored this way is minor warping which should improve once they are taken out. But I'd get busy copying them if it were me.

txenglan · 11-08-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDan

Discs stored in "wallet" type folders are often subject to this type issue. About all you can do is remove them from this storage and wait to see if they improve. Plastic can react to other plastic, it's all petroleum-based material. Stack the discs on a spindle without a cover and see if they improve. Another thing that happens to DVDs stored this way is minor warping which should improve once they are taken out. But I'd get busy copying them if it were me.

Thanks for confirmindg that this is a relatively common issue. I doubt stacking them on a spindle will help. The part I left out is that I made this dicovery about 2 or 3 years ago. That being said, I can still copy all the data easily (at least the ones I've tried) and thus, there seems to have been no subsequent degradation. Meanwhile, I have removed them from that particular folder in favor of another but using spindles is out of the question for me. I need to be able to organize them by type and also to transport them at times. I'd rather buy some 2 or 3 TB hard drives and back them up to those.... (avoiding magnetic media was why I have always used optical backup)

txenglan · 12-08-2012

I have spent most of today looking further into my issue. Virtually all of the disks that were affected scan the same way with high PIE/PIF and even numerous POFs. That being said, for each one I've tried, I've been able to get the data off without any issues. Also, I can tell by looking at the scans that the disk is still perfect other than that affected area on each disk. Furthermore, I question whether I will actually spend the time copying off data and then reburning as I believe the dye itself is not in question. While the strange markings from that plastic lip do evidently interfere with the ability of the laser during reading, I don't think it is as if tis problem will get worse. In fact, I have media that was burned as far back as 2004 (with Nero cd speed scores of 94 to 98) that does not appear to have degraded at all, except for the area of the disk where the markings are. The other interesting thing I have discovered is that the marked disks do scan differently on a general brand-specific basis. I tend to find that MCC 02/03/04 stuff holds up well to the markings whereas CMC MAG E01 media (which were some of my best burns ever) now give me the worst scan results of all affected disks. Sony D11 media also tends to be quite bad. Surprisingly, the most forgiving media (or at least that is to say the affected media that my BenQ 1650 scanner has the least trouble with) seems to be some of my oldest - BenQ-branded Daxon AZ1/2!

Anyhow....not sure this is of interest to anyone but I can't imagine I'll be the only person to run into this. I think I am going to take more time to figure out if I really will panic and copy all of the data. So far, I am thinking that this is a cosmetic issue rather than a serious problem. Again, no doubt it decreases the performance of reads on the affected disks but I think the data may be safe after all.

*CDan* · 12-08-2012

DVDs are made as a sandwich of 2 polycarbonate discs with the organic dye in between. So the dye is as safe as it can be. However, it has to be read through the polycarbonate disc which is covered with a thin film of a lacquer-like material. So it doesn't matter if the dye is "safe" if it can't be read. Optical media is no more or less "safe" than HDD, FWIW some folks might think it's less safe.

Some like file boxes with paper sleeves for the discs. There are a number of similar systems for filing and storing discs. The main thing is: no plastic in contact with the disc. But jewel cases are still the best storage for several reasons.

txenglan · 12-08-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDan

DVDs are made as a sandwich of 2 polycarbonate discs with the organic dye in between. So the dye is as safe as it can be. However, it has to be read through the polycarbonate disc which is covered with a thin film of a lacquer-like material. So it doesn't matter if the dye is "safe" if it can't be read. Optical media is no more or less "safe" than HDD, FWIW some folks might think it's less safe.

Some like file boxes with paper sleeves for the discs. There are a number of similar systems for filing and storing discs. The main thing is: no plastic in contact with the disc. But jewel cases are still the best storage for several reasons.

If I didn't have so many disks with the added requirement that I need to get at them I'd use one of the methods you've mentioned. Meanwhile, I've dicovered that I have other binders with the same sort of design (the dreaded plastic lip behind the top of the disk). Attached is a picture of what I'm referring to. Notice the dip in the plastic at the top of the pocket down into the area of the pocket itself. I don't mind plastic touching the back (face) of the disk....just not on the reading side. Each one of my affected disks have a dotted/smudgy imprint from that tab/lip.

**Arachne** · 12-08-2012

I have a similar binder - but it's a Case Logic one that doesn't have that small dip you point out, so no plastic touching the data side of the disc.

I really only use the binder for "everyday use" discs - that is, stuff I don't mind losing/re-burning if needed as it's backed up elsewhere.

My proper archives are stored in an aluminium DJ-style case - still with cloth-backed wallets, but they hang on rails down each side of the case. Easy enough to transport, as long as you don't have to move tons of discs I guess!

I've been keeping discs in both the binder and the case for some time now, and so far so good. I used to use slim jewel cases to store the archival ones, which worked a treat too - very cumbersome though if you had to transport them.

txenglan · 12-08-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arachne

I have a similar binder - but it's a Case Logic one that doesn't have that small dip you point out, so no plastic touching the data side of the disc.

I really only use the binder for "everyday use" discs - that is, stuff I don't mind losing/re-burning if needed as it's backed up elsewhere.

My proper archives are stored in an aluminium DJ-style case - still with cloth-backed wallets, but they hang on rails down each side of the case. Easy enough to transport, as long as you don't have to move tons of discs I guess!

I've been keeping discs in both the binder and the case for some time now, and so far so good. I used to use slim jewel cases to store the archival ones, which worked a treat too - very cumbersome though if you had to transport them.

The problem with mine is that they are a cross between archive and every day use. I never know when I'll need to use them and there are too many to back up elsewhere entirely....unless HDDs come back down to planet earth in price

A few 4TB drives would do the trick.

Your bit about the Caselogic wallets not having that lip is spot on. I have a bunch of the Caselogic ones and none of them have that. As such, all the media I have stored in Caselogic folders is in pristine condition. I can't believe I have been stupid enough to buy excellent media, scan all my burns and then undermine the whole thing by storing disks in junk folders. I feel like an idiot!

**Arachne** · 12-08-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by txenglan

The problem with mine is that they are a cross between archive and every day use. I never know when I'll need to use them and there are too many to back up elsewhere entirely....unless HDDs come back down to planet earth in price

A few 4TB drives would do the trick.

Hmmm, maybe one of the aluminium cases would do the trick? As for HDD, I hear ya - I'm forever moving and sorting stuff to delete to make backup space on 1x 1TB HDD + 1x 500GB HDD. Can't wait til prices come back down to Earth!

Quote:

Your bit about the Caselogic wallets not having that lip is spot on. I have a bunch of the Caselogic ones and none of them have that. As such, all the media I have stored in Caselogic folders is in pristine condition. I can't believe I have been stupid enough to buy excellent media, scan all my burns and then undermine the whole thing by storing disks in junk folders. I feel like an idiot!

Good to hear you Caselogic-stored discs are doing well

And don't feel like an idiot - I bet most of us here (myself included - storing my only backups on Ritek G05 discs springs to mind, thank God for LiteOn drives!

) have made some pretty good media howlers

txenglan · 12-08-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arachne

Hmmm, maybe one of the aluminium cases would do the trick? As for HDD, I hear ya - I'm forever moving and sorting stuff to delete to make backup space on 1x 1TB HDD + 1x 500GB HDD. Can't wait til prices come back down to Earth!

Good to hear you Caselogic-stored discs are doing well

And don't feel like an idiot - I bet most of us here (myself included - storing my only backups on Ritek G05 discs springs to mind, thank God for LiteOn drives!

) have made some pretty good media howlers

I'll look a bit more into the aluminum cases but somehow, I don't think that will work for me. I'm actually fairly confident that as long as I stick to Caselogic, my disks will remain flawless. With no exception, any that were stored in those ones are as pristine as the day I burned them!

Thanks for the kind words on not being an idiot but I am convinced that I am

In fact, I have to believe I am or else I won't be able to guilt myself into buying $100 worth of Caselogic folders

11-08-2012	#1
txenglan MyCE Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 56	CD/DVD Storage Damaging Disks I've been reading/searching through the forums but haven't seen my particular issue mentioned. Recently, while quality scanning some old media, I was shocked to discover that an alarming percentage of my burned DVD disks (all high quality media) had incredibly high PIE/PIFs. Disk after disk displayed the same scan results, regardless of brand. Also, I noticed that the scans generally seemed to yield high PIE/PIF after hitting the 3GB mark. I inspected one disk closely and noticed a strange dot/smudge pattern in a very regular patterned distribution on the read side of the disk. Then, I realized that ALL my disks (in that particular CD folder) had the same pattern. Finally, I recognized that the pattern matched up perfectly to a small, curved plastic lip/tab that protruded down about 1 inch behind every disk placed in that particular folder. The lip was made out of the same transparent, finely-"dotted/bumpy" plastic that forms the pouches that holds all the disks in (from the printed side). Thus, 95% of the read side of the disk would be touching a cloth-like material (that left no mark) but on every disk, there was an ugly, parabolic-shaped area where the plastic lip seemed to have "melted" or "rotted" the read side of the disk. I tried cleaning a number of the disks but I cannot seem to get the strange blocthy/dots off. It is as if the plastic from the CD/DVD folder has actually reacted chemically with the read surface of each disk! I am almost certain that the disks are actually fine and that I only need get rid of the strange "blotchiness" but try as I might, I can't seem to get it off. If in fact it is a chemical reaction, I suppose it might not be able to be taken off. I can try to take a photo or two but I'm not sure if the effect will be visible (I had to look quite closely to even notice it). In any case, I'm thinking that someone on here will have run into this before and will likely know what is going on from my description alone... I've now got 100+ disks that exhibit this issue and I am quite worried about it. These are disks that were all next to flawless burns that now (superficially) get "0" scores with a Nero quality scan. Any insight/info/recommendations would be much appreciated!

11-08-2012	#2
CDan MyCE Resident Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Posts: 3,920	Discs stored in "wallet" type folders are often subject to this type issue. About all you can do is remove them from this storage and wait to see if they improve. Plastic can react to other plastic, it's all petroleum-based material. Stack the discs on a spindle without a cover and see if they improve. Another thing that happens to DVDs stored this way is minor warping which should improve once they are taken out. But I'd get busy copying them if it were me. __________________ Current drives running here: LG-GSA-H62N, iHBS 112-2, LG-WH14NS40, iHAP 422

12-08-2012	#5
CDan MyCE Resident Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Posts: 3,920	DVDs are made as a sandwich of 2 polycarbonate discs with the organic dye in between. So the dye is as safe as it can be. However, it has to be read through the polycarbonate disc which is covered with a thin film of a lacquer-like material. So it doesn't matter if the dye is "safe" if it can't be read. Optical media is no more or less "safe" than HDD, FWIW some folks might think it's less safe. Some like file boxes with paper sleeves for the discs. There are a number of similar systems for filing and storing discs. The main thing is: no plastic in contact with the disc. But jewel cases are still the best storage for several reasons. __________________ Current drives running here: LG-GSA-H62N, iHBS 112-2, LG-WH14NS40, iHAP 422

12-08-2012	#7
Arachne Senior Administrator & Reviewer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Tabby Towers, West of England Posts: 33,795	I have a similar binder - but it's a Case Logic one that doesn't have that small dip you point out, so no plastic touching the data side of the disc. I really only use the binder for "everyday use" discs - that is, stuff I don't mind losing/re-burning if needed as it's backed up elsewhere. My proper archives are stored in an aluminium DJ-style case - still with cloth-backed wallets, but they hang on rails down each side of the case. Easy enough to transport, as long as you don't have to move tons of discs I guess! I've been keeping discs in both the binder and the case for some time now, and so far so good. I used to use slim jewel cases to store the archival ones, which worked a treat too - very cumbersome though if you had to transport them. __________________ Current drives: Samsung SE-S084C (TS02) + Samsung SH-S223F (SB03 RPC1 + other goodies) + TSST (Samsung) TS-H653F (DW10) + Samsung SH-S203N (SB02 RPC1 + other goodies) + Optiarc AD-5170S (1.12) + Litey LH-20A1H (LL0D) + Samsung SH-S182D (SB06 RPC1) x2 + LG E10N (JE07) + BenQ DW1650 (BCDC) + BenQ DW1640@164B (BEFB) + LG 4167B (DL13 TDB) + NEC ND-4551A (1.Z2) + LG GCE-8520B (1.00) + LiteOn SOHR-5239S (2S0B) Retired: LiteOn LDW-851@SOHW-832 + LiteOn SOHW-1693S + LG 4163B + Pioneer DVR-115D My Review PCs How to delete your upper and lower filters : How to check/enable DMA by Womble Click here to join MyCE.com and be part of our friendly community! Smile...people will wonder what you're up to

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