Old 31-05-2005   #1
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Black cd-r's + audio quality

I'm basically a novice to cd burning, and this forum is an incredible education.
I want to burn a few music cd's with the highest possible sound quality--price/ longevity aren't major concerns.
A few months ago, I found this at another forum (can't remember specifically) but I jotted it down.
Does this guy's point seem to be valid? Several posters agreed with him that black was superior.
I searched Club CD Freaks forum for mention of black cd-r's but didn't find much.
Here's what he said:

"The reason black cdrs sound warmer is that it's often easier for the cd-player to read from a black cd than the original silver cd and because of this the error-correction (that is not perfect on music cds, data cds have 100%
perfect error-correction) must correct more data on the original cd. Cdrw drives can read cds much better than an audioplayer and therefore it has less errors when it's burnt out on a black cd when played back in a cd-player."
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Old 31-05-2005   #2
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

black among colored cd's supposedly provide better sound, i use black cd's myself and i like them, to bad i bought CMC tho

if u buy black or colored cd's try to get prodisc as i heard there a lot better then the cmc (memorex) ones
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Old 31-05-2005   #3
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

Black colour doesn't do a shit beside looking kewl.

Audio and media quality is still the same. I prefer Fujifilm made by fujifilm in Germany or Taiyo Yuden made in Japan for CD-R discs.
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Old 31-05-2005   #4
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

Quote:
Originally Posted by will27
Here's what he said:

"The reason black cdrs sound warmer is that it's often easier for the cd-player to read from a black cd than the original silver cd and because of this the error-correction (that is not perfect on music cds, data cds have 100%
perfect error-correction) must correct more data on the original cd. Cdrw drives can read cds much better than an audioplayer and therefore it has less errors when it's burnt out on a black cd when played back in a cd-player."
This guy has absolutely no idea what he's talking about... really none at all
I'd suggest you to do a blind(!) test between a black and a normal CD-R filled with the same music data. If you can blindly differentiate one from the other, call back here As long as both CD-R are correctly written (which is no problem at all nowadays when using good media and burner combination), no one can ever hear a difference between them, as the CD player reads out the exact same stream of 1's and 0's in both cases.
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Old 31-05-2005   #5
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

I can tell from various blindtests that the CD-Writer has an influence on sound (Sony CDU948s and 921 and 900 sound differently when using discs from same batch).But well you can fight hours over this one....
Digitally its the same flow of 1 and 0s but music as you hear it is still analog. So if there is a difference in hearing it must be after D/A conversion or your CD player doesnt give you a correct flow of the 1 and 0s (well i dont hope so lol). Now it is said that some discs need more electric power when reading them (servo/laser/focusing) than others and that this more power needed could produce noise (interference) in the player and distort the data (the analog one) giving you different sound (warmer/broader/flatter or whatever).

PS. I know its something you could fight over for hours days or weeks or longer and I have no intention to. Its only a theory I have heard off and read in some magazines on Audio. I also wont give any further comments on this issue.
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Old 31-05-2005   #6
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

Quote:
Originally Posted by koba
I can tell from various blindtests that the CD-Writer has an influence on sound (Sony CDU948s and 921 and 900 sound differently when using discs from same batch).But well you can fight hours over this one....
If you have correctly done blind tests, there is no need to fight But, you know, most people who claim these things have never done a blind test and refuse to do one because they "trust" their ears. So, if you successfully ABXed the CD-Rs, the question is where do the differences come from? I don't really buy this "need more electric power when reading them" theory. Have you done a C1/C2 scan of the discs in question? What did the differences sound like? Was it reproducible on a different CD player?
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Old 31-05-2005   #7
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

sTisTi>
Test was done on a P4 2.4Ghz with 2gig Corsair Memory with Adaptec 2940 SCSI card and Seagate 80GB HDD running Windows 2000. The drives 948 and 921 are in a SUN MODEL NO 611 case and 900 was in original external case. Only 1 burner was attached to SCSI interface when burning. Discs used where 3 TY 80 min blanks from same batch for each drive (total 9 discs). Sample was Queen Greatest Hits CD and copy was done by ripping the disc to wave with EAC using Plextor ULTRAPLEX40TSi to 800MB RAMDISC (RAMDISC prepared with special widows software). Burnspeed was 1x for all drives. C1/C2 test were done on PX716 and no problems were detected. Discs where labeled with burner product number and a 1/2or3 (948-1 948-2 and 948-3 etc).
CD Players used where a Panasonic Portable CD player a SONY Standalone CD player and a Pioneer DVD Player all connected to a Sansui amplifier. Speakers used where JBL4310 from the 1970s.
Test was done with 4 other friends (total 5 people) of them 4 being blindfolded (me included) and the 5th person Changing the discs randomly.Listeners and person responsible for playback were never changed. Players where changed after playback of all 9 discs with 1 player. Listeners knew when Player was changed. Track used to test was first randomly choosen by the first CD players random function and afterwards same track was used for all tests.
After each playback of the disc the one responsible for playback wrote down wich disc has been played in a list and each listener also had his own list. First Disc played was written down as 1 and the following was written down as 1 or 2 and the 3rd and following discs as 1/2or3 in the list by the listener (each listener not knowing what the others write down). This was conducted with all discs on all players. After all tests and checking the list with the order of discs played we got a total 85% match (which I think is not bad). The most missmatches where between the 948 and 921.
Sound is realy difficult to tell but the point where I did sort the discs in to 1/2or 3 was the sound of the highhats of the drums (clearness).
Since players have influence on sound we used 1 list per player (So on list 1 CD-R1 is not the same as CD-R1 on list 2).
Now why the sound difference?? I dont know. The only thing I know is that we had a 85% match.
Hope this answers your Questions
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Old 31-05-2005   #8
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

Quote:
Black colour doesn't do a shit beside looking kewl.
agreed
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Old 31-05-2005   #9
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

But they do look quite cool.
Black CD-R aka portable mirror.
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Old 31-05-2005   #10
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

Quote:
Originally Posted by koba
...
Now why the sound difference?? I dont know. The only thing I know is that we had a 85% match.
Hope this answers your Questions
Thanks for the clarification and description, koba! I am in no way a statistics expert and don't know whether 85% is considered to be statistically "significant" with regard to ABX testing, but I guess it is.
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Old 31-05-2005   #11
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

The best CD-R for audio are Mitsui gold, HHB gold MFSL gold, apogee Gold, then Mitsui Silver but they are hard to find and they do not burn good on most burners. They are absolutely the best for audio but they are very expensive. The 2nd best are those maxell pro CD-R/Maxell Music Pro CD-R, made in Japan by Taiyo Yuden or Made by Maxell themselves. Stay away from those Vinyl or black CD-R, they have very flat bass. And I recommend to record your audio CD at 4X and if you have high end audio system, you might have to stick with those gold CD-R or Maxell. And if you play on low end system, ($1500 or lower) or on your computer, then just get those regular CD-R out there
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Old 31-05-2005   #12
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

come on, burning at a low speed such as 4x with a modern burner will more than likely result in higher error rates than burning at a higher speed, if you want the best quality go and buy some TY cdr's and a plextor premium and be happy, but please cut the BS
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Old 31-05-2005   #13
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

@Mr. Brownstone...you'll never win when it comes to arguing with audiophiles (comment not directed at ghetocowboy at all but merely an observation about the steadfastness with which audiophiles claim certain things/methods are better than others)...
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Old 31-05-2005   #14
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

ghetocowboy>I would be very cautious about which is the best. My burners dont like Phtalocyanin (Sony 948/921/900) and so TY 8X Gold reflection layer, Normal 8x TDK, TDK 71minutes CDRs and TY 63minutes CD-Rs give the best results for me. Oh well the "Sound" I like. There is only 1 Disc that I think can beat the rest and the only Phtalocyanine Disc working for my drives because it is the only disc produced to match older sony drives which is the Ricoh NY74+MA which is only available to recording studios (I got 10 from a friend working for a big recording studio and it is impossible to buy them as normal user) and has a price tag of 8000 yen (around US$80) per disc (5 disc spindle is 15000yen). But well thats only my oppinion.
Burning speed depends on your burner. I think that if you got a 12 or 16x drive 4x would be good but with a 52x drive the spindle motor is not so good tuned for low speed burning and 4x would not give excellent results. Also I would say it depends on media used as high speed medias are not made for slow burns. Mitsubishi 48x discs are labeled as 4-48 and there is a special line for 1-16x burning. I myself get the best results a 1 or 2x.

But good "sound" for me is not good "sound" for every person and I dont want to insist that this or that is the best! If you are Happy with the "Sound Quality" of your disc/writer/Audio System combination then thats the best you can get for you. Thats also the reason why I write "I think" or "the best for me" as it really is a very personal thing.

Edit: I like to say its the same as with the opposite sex. You maybe have had the experience seeing a good looking real hot Girl walking with a guy and thinking wtf why is that girl walking with such a bad looking guy..... or meeting your friends girlfriend for the first time and ask yourself where did he look at??? Well the whole world would be a mess if all Male would like the same Female or vice versa. If you like that Woman/Man then thats the best for you regardless of what others are saying or thinking. Thats the same with audio....
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Old 31-05-2005   #15
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

Quote:
Originally Posted by koba
But good "sound" for me is not good "sound" for every person and I dont want to insist that this or that is the best! If you are Happy with the "Sound Quality" of your disc/writer/Audio System combination then thats the best you can get for you. Thats also the reason why I write "I think" or "the best for me" as it really is a very personal thing.
an example of why i respect almost every post of koba's that i read
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Old 31-05-2005   #16
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

HAhaha ... not true.
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Old 31-05-2005   #17
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

what's not true?
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Old 31-05-2005   #18
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

Koba, I agreed, sound quality is very subjective. And I did mention those gold CD-R, doesn't burn good on most burner, but my old Yamaha burner with audio master and my Plextor 820 scsi burner love those gold CD-Rs. Most new burners dont even do 4X and thats the reason why I am still keeping all my old burners and I only use those strictly for audio recording
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Old 01-06-2005   #19
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

It seems to me that a lot of people can't get over the cassette/CD difference to know that recording speed has nothing to do with the audio quality of the resulting CD backup. Nor do they realize that any good quality CDR will work as well as another. I use normal "data" TY's and Riteks for all of my CDR writing (data and audio) and have not had any problems with audio CD's sounding bad or even worse than the original. If you perform an error test after the recording and you get low error rates, the resulting CDR backup should be as good as the original for all intents and purposes. There is no analog data loss like the old cassette to cassette recorders.
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Old 01-06-2005   #20
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

yes you cant tell the difference in sound quality if you have a low end sound system. With highend audio system, you will hear the difference in SQ. Lemme reiterate, if you are playing back in a low cost audio system or in a computer, then do not bother to buy expensive media.
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Old 01-06-2005   #21
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

what consitutes a "highend" audio system? i'm just curious as to where the cutoff is between a "lowend" and "highend" system...
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Old 02-06-2005   #22
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

Highend cd player has high defination Digital analog converter like Burr Brown chip or a CD player that hooked up to an external DAC with 18-bit or 24-bit burr brown chip. Go do some research in the audio forum drpino and hopefully that will widen your knowledge beyond CD/DVD burning. Basing on the number of posts in here, I am pretty sure you know almost everything there is to know about CD/DVD burning, but you should explore other field before commenting on the field that is outside of your expertise
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Old 02-06-2005   #23
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghetocowboy
Highend cd player has high defination Digital analog converter like Burr Brown chip or a CD player that hooked up to an external DAC with 18-bit or 24-bit burr brown chip. Go do some research in the audio forum drpino and hopefully that will widen your knowledge beyond CD/DVD burning. Basing on the number of posts in here, I am pretty sure you know almost everything there is to know about CD/DVD burning, but you should explore other field before commenting on the field that is outside of your expertise
it was an honest question, but thanks for the bit of info...
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Old 02-06-2005   #24
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

drpino,

You just can't argue with a true believer.
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Old 02-06-2005   #25
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Re: Black cd-r's + audio quality

You cant argue.
Saruman>I myself think that recording speed has something to do with how the burn sounds when played back. It is possible by looking at 2 discs from same burner and tell which was burned at a higher speeds (like 2 and 16x) because the edges of the pit and lands get a little distorted at high speeds. This distortion is believed to give a difference in sound.
Drpino>
When i did the ABX (read my post about it in this thread) we used a US$150 Pioneer DVD drive and you could hear the difference. So it has not to be a high audio product to hear the difference.
Now if you would ask me a low end system would be a Portable CD player hooked up to a pair of Speakers or a system where CD-Radio-Tape and Amplifier are in one box (Compact stereos). A mid end would be where all players and tuner and amplifier are separated and each has its own power supply. Mid end or even low end (differs from audiophile to audiophile ) CD player would be at around US$200-300.
Now high end would be something like a McIntosh, Luxman or ACCUPHASE amplifier, TEAC CD transporter hooked up to a 24bit/192kHz D/A plus a master clock generator or Goldmund, Accuphase or Marantz CD player with Tannoy / JBL / B&W Speakers etc which will all in all cost you a real fortune (thousands of US$). Oh and not to forget a Power regulator because the electricity you get from the wall outlet has "noise" in it (well a entry model one sells around US$2000 over here in Japan ). Of course each audiophile music maniac has his own preffered brand and some go as far as to customize their systems by replacing transistors and other things paying hundreds or thousands of US$ more......
But just remember that you just cant spent enough money on a High end system lol.
And you never can argue with audiophiles (oh well audiophiles argue among themselves whats better and they will never find a real answer lol).
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