Old 14-04-2006   #1
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Best audio quality when copying CD ?

Hi,

what combination of rip-media-writer would experts here suggest for making a perfect copy of high quality audio CDs ?

I have several rare CDs I like to listen to at work, but do not want to have there ( risk of having them stealed, not very good reader, etc), so I want to copy them for that usage ( personal)

I have tried with EAC latest build ( rip with my AOpen CD-Writer) then burn with Feurio latest build, but result is not perfect : some loss in medium and space seems to be "smaller"

Any suggestions for :
- best audio reader for ripping ( hardware - software)
- good CDs for burning audio CDs
- best writer for that usage ( data doesn't matter : mine works well at that)

Thanks !
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Old 14-04-2006   #2
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Re: Best audio quality when copying CD ?

If you use a program like clonecd it copies the tracks exactly to the new CD. There can be no loss of quality as the analogue signal is encoded as 0 & 1's. The biggest factor in quality is the digital to analogue decoder found in the cd player.
As for the type of CD to record on any good quality disc will suffice, if you do a search you will see the various recommendations of members.
CD's are not like the old days of cassette or tape recorders where the quality of the recording depended on the quality of the tape, the level of the bias used, speed, quality of the heads and the size of the gap, stability of the motor drive etc.
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Old 14-04-2006   #3
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Re: Best audio quality when copying CD ?

Perfect is a word that should be rarely used aswell as neverending and so on.

Full disc copy - best way.
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Old 14-04-2006   #4
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Re: Best audio quality when copying CD ?

Right even in a digital 0-1 world a 1:1 copy doesn't seem to be 1:1 !

Otherwise there would not be a difference between source CD and burned CD when listened to with same HiFi CD reader.

Have so far tested :

- read from AOpen DVD drive / NEC DVD burner
- read with EAC with error correction - burn with Feurio
- read using Feurio - burn with Feurio
- read & burn using CloneCD

None achieves same transparency and detail as original.

Will try with better CD media : now using cheap ones I use for data with no problem ( don't need 300 years validity of my data).

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Old 15-04-2006   #5
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Re: Best audio quality when copying CD ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VermeulenP
Right even in a digital 0-1 world a 1:1 copy doesn't seem to be 1:1 !

Otherwise there would not be a difference between source CD and burned CD when listened to with same HiFi CD reader.

Have so far tested :

- read from AOpen DVD drive / NEC DVD burner
- read with EAC with error correction - burn with Feurio
- read using Feurio - burn with Feurio
- read & burn using CloneCD

None achieves same transparency and detail as original.

Will try with better CD media : now using cheap ones I use for data with no problem ( don't need 300 years validity of my data).

You could try burning with EAC after making an image, and then in order to make sure that your mind isn't playing tricks on you with, you can rip the cd that you burned and compare the file to the original rips. Also do you have C2 error correction turned on, if you do maybe you should turn it off.

EDIT: By compare I mean use the compare wav function of EAC, not your ears
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Old 15-04-2006   #6
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Re: Best audio quality when copying CD ?

1 Have a GOOD Drive.
Rip with plextools or EAC
Burn with feurio! or plextools.
Good media . Plextor cds (TY).
Find the best Speed for your media.

Clonecd is not as good as Plextools or EAC for audio Extraction.
You can find more info about audio in http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/ Foruns.
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Old 17-04-2006   #7
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Re: Best audio quality when copying CD ?

1. Use a Plextor drive and Plextools or EAC and burn with Plextools (You will need a Plextor Drive / Burner to use plextools). I would recomend a Plextor Premium.
2. Use high quality media. I would search for 32x TY CD-Rs (Look for Made in Japan on the package) and I would not burn at the discs maximum specified speed (maybe 16x with 32 certified media). Also I would recomend to use 700MB blanks only if the Audio does not fit on 650MB discs.
3. You will never achieve 100% same transparency and detail as original.

This is my own personal view and I know that many people will disagree with me and specially with point 3. I will not discuss about it since there never will be an end to that kind of discussion.
If you search the Audio and Blank Media Section you sure will find many discussions about the influence of Blanks and burning speed etc on sound quality.
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Old 18-04-2006   #8
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Re: Best audio quality when copying CD ?

whats wrong with ripping to WAV then burning from image file?
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Old 18-04-2006   #9
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Re: Best audio quality when copying CD ?

Can only agree with the post from koba.
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Old 19-04-2006   #10
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Re: Best audio quality when copying CD ?

in this order for best resuls

1.software.. you can have the best drive in the world ..but if your software sucks that drive can do nothing for you after the fact.
(go with a pro audio application for absolute best results, read this post:
http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=150378
wavelab would be my no1. choice ..followed by sonic foundry.

2. media
Quote:
2. Use high quality media. I would search for 32x TY CD-Rs (Look for Made in Japan on the package)
absolutley.. these are good!!
and these as well..
http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/cdr.php
http://www.hhb.co.uk/hhb/usa/hhbprod...edia/index.asp

3. drive (uhh that's for the pro's im a noob)

4. and then burn speed (the slower the better)
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Old 19-04-2006   #11
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Re: Best audio quality when copying CD ?

You're all wrong about quality. Given that you're doing the job right, there will be difference between the original and the copy. Any difference in quality will then be the fault of a bad optical pickup and/or bad error correction on the CD player, having to deal with a CD-R as opposed to a factory-pressed CD.
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Old 19-04-2006   #12
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Re: Best audio quality when copying CD ?

But a "normal" human will not be able to hear such slight differences...
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Old 19-04-2006   #13
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Re: Best audio quality when copying CD ?

But I DO hear differences and they are not slight : loss of transparency, particularly in high frequencies ( bells, soprano voices...) and space reduction

Using EAC to rip at low speed on NEC 3500G / burning with Feurio lowest speed accepted vy burner and NEC 3500G writer

I use "low quality" CDs ( which have always been perfect for data however).
Will try with high quality CDs ( Mitsui or Tayo Yuden CDs which I have ordered).

I only hear differences for some classical music CDs because of all the details which are needed to really appreciate the performances. Perhaps it is less evident for other musics, I don't know. But teh differences I hear are really REAL !

Will report once I have the "high quality CDs" burnerd. That will be next week.

And I do not think audi CDs are as error-tolerant as data CDs

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Old 20-04-2006   #14
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Re: Best audio quality when copying CD ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VermeulenP
And I do not think audi CDs are as error-tolerant as data CDs


LOL

Who ever would have doubted that?!?

CDDA has no useful error correction compared to Data CD/DVD...
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Old 20-04-2006   #15
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Re: Best audio quality when copying CD ?

Sure.

But the it expalins that bit-copy can result in errors that can result in audio differnces more likely than in data-CDs

In my case CloneCD copy has not resulted in the best copy as compared to EAC or Feurio rip
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Old 20-04-2006   #16
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Re: Best audio quality when copying CD ?

That then depends on capabilities of the reader (source).....
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Old 21-04-2006   #17
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Re: Best audio quality when copying CD ?

If you got a Good Burner (my NEC 3540A is Excellent) n good CDRs n use either Copy to Copy (copy on the fly) or Easy CD-DA Extractor to Rip at 320Kbit/s..There is Much Much more within that program that I'm sure you will use n understand more than I ever will..Go Get it!
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Old 21-04-2006   #18
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Re: Best audio quality when copying CD ?

On the fly copying was good in the old days with SCSI drives when burnapps did not use buffers. Nero and others automaticaly use a buffer in memory or harddisc (dont know if you can not turn that feature off in Nero. If yes I would be happy if anyone could tell me how to.). In the old days with SCSI Drives and old apps the DATA would go strait from CD-DRIVE to SCSI Controller and then to CD-Burner while today the data is transfered from Drive to controller to buffer (HDD or RAM) and then to the burner. Because of this I heard that on the fly copying is not as good as it was. I also heard that nowadays using a RAM-Drive for buffer or rip to RAM drive should give you a good quality audio copy (only an option if you have 1gigs or more of RAM).

VermeulenP>
Some things I do and found out when copying audio CDs:
- boot my pc with an old DOS disc with SCSI support (I still use SCSI drives for Audio CD copying) and then load a burnapp which allows on the fly copying without the usage of a buffer. If that is not an option rip to HDD and copy to CD-R

- using different type of dyes,reflection layer, makers and coating (it is said that different coating results in different weight of the disc) gives different sound. AZO, Phtalo- and Cyanin give different sound quality. TDK CD Audio Pro Musical Reference, TY, Mitsui, Verbatim AZO and Ritek will all give different results (some have good resolution in the higher parts while others do better in the lower part or middle range). You should make a test with different medias and look which one does best for you. I use TDK CD Audio Pro Musical for Rock etc and TYs, old stock Made in Japan Mitsui Gold and MIJ Kodak Gold for Classic music.

As said in an earlier post many will say that there is no difference between a 100% error free copy and the original. I did some blind tests and I myself have heard differences between different CD-Rs.
Since you say that you hear the difference I would suggest trying out different medias and ways to rip/burn (like on the fly copy or rip to image or rip each track separately with different settings in EAC or any other software) your CDs.
You should also know that the best result for me in terms of transparency or resolution etc is not the same as for you or any other person since we all use different setups to play our discs and all of us have a different taste in what a good sound is.
Example: some like tube amps and some hate them and others like JBL speakers and other say Tannoy or any other brand is better and some prefer Vinyl or open reel (then the which is better: AKAI or TEAC/TASCAM open reel) over CDs etc...... I think you get what I want to say lol.
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Old 21-04-2006   #19
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Re: Best audio quality when copying CD ?

koba,

SCSI! Thumbs up!!!
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Old 21-04-2006   #20
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Re: Best audio quality when copying CD ?

OFF TOPIC
Well Chef I still have 5 SCSI CD-R a SCSI CD-ROM and a SCSI DVD-ROM (which is actually only a IDE drive in an external box using a IDE to Scsi Bridge) conected to my comp.
2 SONY CDU921S-PR (official drive for Playstation masters by Sony but changed ceramic clock with cristal clock for better results in burning Audio CDs, which makes this not as off topic as the first line of this post states)
2 Plextor PX-W1210TS (well they still give me better results than my PX-708 or NEC 3500 DVD burners)
1 Sanyo CRD-BP3 (bought to use with UMDoctor Pro app to check C1 and C2 errors on CD-Rs but unfortunately this app does not work in Windows XP or I have not been able to run it....)
1 PX-40TSi (I hate using Burners to read Discs lol and for ripping Audio CDs, hmm off topic??)
1 Pioneer DVD-116 DVD-ROM IDE but conected as SCSI (same reason as above... I hate usig Burners to read back discs lol)
End of OFF TOPIC
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Old 22-04-2006   #21
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Re: Best audio quality when copying CD ?

Nice collection.
I still have some Plextor 32TSi, Yamaha, Panasonic and Philips SCSI CD-burners and a bunch of controllers and harddisks, DATs, and so on. :-)
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