Results & Discussion: Cinavia protection

**StormJumper** · 29-01-2011

Dear all,

________

Download DVDFab v8073 and above to copy Cinavia protected DVDs and Blu-ray disc's

A new protection for audio-video content appeared: it is called Cinavia. It is reported to be used for protection of movie from theaters and disc releases on DVD & Blu-ray. It consists of a multi-level watermark that is embedded in the audio track and, while being theoretically transparent(not-audible) for the listener, it is supposed to resist various transformations of the audio stream like re-compression, analog playback&record, re-sampling, pitch shift, etc. The base levels are analog, but on the top level there's the watermark payload that contains some restrictions regarding the playback environment.

The protection has two elements (one cannot work without the other):
1. The watermark embedded in audio-video content.
2. Cinavia enabled player, that will refuse to play the content if it does not match the restrictions.
Examples:
1. A movie copy made with a camcorder in a theater that contains Cinavia (THEATRICAL_NO_HOME_USE) watermark will stop playing within about 1 minute on a Playstation 3 and display a Message 1.
2. An unprotected (no AACS) Blu-ray backup of "The Losers" (US release) will mute the audio after about 20 minutes with Message 3 (for not coming from a TRUSTED_SOURCE).

We consider that it is useful for the users to know about discs that contain Cinavia protection and about players that have detectors for it.
Also, DVDFab and DVDFab Passkey provide information about original discs that have the watermark.

Blu-ray discs:
The Losers *(Warner Brothers, volume name=THE_LOSERS) (English track only)
The Karate Kid (2010)* (Sony, volume name=THE_KARATE_KID) (most of the tracks)
The Other Guys (Sony, 14dec2010) (English track only)
Resident Evil: Afterlife 2D* (Sony, 28dec2010) (English track only)
Resident Evil: Afterlife 3D* (Sony, 28dec2010) (English track only)
Salt (Sony, 21dec2010) (English track only)
The Social Network (Sony, 11jan2011) (English track only)
Takers (Sony, 18jan2011) (English track only)
Burlesque (Sony, 01mar2011)
The Tourist (Sony, 22mar2011)
How Do You Know (Sony, 22mar2011)
* for those, in teritories where the movie is not released by Warner Bros. or Sony, the Blu-ray does not have Cinavia

DVD discs:
Takers (Sony, 18jan2011) (English track only)
Burlesque (Sony, 01mar2011)
The Tourist (Sony, 22mar2011)

Blu-ray/media players that use Cinavia:
Sony Playstation 3 (PS3) firmware 3.10 or higher
Pioneer BDP-V6000
Marantz UD5005
LG BDP550 (fw: 8.31.283.C)
Denon DBP-1611UD

There have been identified a couple of workarounds (listed in the order of usability):
1. Use the audio track from the DVD release of the same movie, particularily handy if it was a Blu&DVD Combo release.

Pros:
Good quality (DVD audio track is probably an AC3, cannot compare to the lossless of a BD but still good)
Works on any Cinavia-enabled player, because the audio has no watermark (future proof).
Cons:
Needs the DVD version as well (may be hard to source a 'clean', matching DVD).
Needs remuxing skills.
The DVD version may be a different mix, so the whole track may not be 100% in sync with Blu-ray release.
Recently, with Takers, the DVD also has Cinavia watermark, making this workaround useless.
2. Embed DTS core in a PCM track, like in the DTS CDs. There is a special way in which DTS compressed can be stored in a WAV file, for example, and eventualy written on a CD-audio. A player such as VLC will see there is a DTS track inside and decode it correctly; others may not know that and will produce a hissing noise (static). So appart from embedding DTS sound in a PCM track, one absolutely needs an external AV-receiver to decode it.

Pros:
Very good quality, the bitrate of the DTS track is higher than of a AC3 one, from a DVD.
Not detectable by the Cinavia enabled player if it is set to pass-through the audio to an external decoder. This way the information about the source of content is lost and the external decoder has no reason not to decode the audio.
Cons:
Well, there could be a reason: if it does not know how to extract DTS from PCM. We tried this a while ago, but could not find an AV-receiver to cope with the DTS-in-PCM track, so we only mentioned it now to present you all the posibilities, even theoretical ones. This is more like: "what a nice idea, too bad I cannot use it"
3. Apparently there is another trick to be tried on a PS3 (only) and it needs you to select optical cable as output in Sound settings and checking all the sound formats (weird and dangerous! see the warning PS3 will display there), then also select the multiple output option. See this and this.

Cons:
We could not manage to replicate it on our PS3.
Seems more like a bug in the Cinavia detector of PS3, so it's quite likely to be patched in future firmwares.
And finally, the first solution to disable Cinavia is here. DVDFab has a new way of creating backups so they don't trigger Cinavia anymore. This solution is particularly useful for PS3 users who were the most affected by Cinavia. What makes it a great solution is that the disc is much like the original, a protected backup so the Cinavia-enabled player will see it as trusted source and will play it back just like the original. People have made protected (isos) backups in the past, but those had the disadvantage that they only worked with the programs that made them; well, these protected backups are supposed to work on standalone players too.

Technical details: the discs created are called BDMV-REC as they are AACS protected recordable BDMV. Another solution would be AACS protected BDAV, like the ones produced by Japanese BD recorders.

Requirements:
original Blu-ray disc with Cinavia watermark. DVDFab and DVDFab Passkey will tell if you have such a disc
a BD-RE (recommended for initial tests) or BD-R disc to store the protected backup
a BD writer
updated writing software. DVDFab checks for it anyway

Pros:
It is a solution to disable Cinavia, exactly as it is disabled for the original disc, due to (AACS) protection layer being active.
DVDFab does all the tricks involved to create such a protected backup at a push of a button.
The disc can preserve all the original features like menus, interactivity, BD-Live.
Broad firmware support: PS3 users with firmware from 1.60 and up to 3.56 can use BDMV-REC discs; fw3.55 is the latest at the time of writing.
At any time, DVDFab or DVDFab Passkey can be used to remove the protection, if you need to.
This is kind of an official solution, because it involves support from AACS standards, the same standards that force adoption of Cinavia
While we tested it on PS3 for now, it may work on other players too. As results from tests will become available we'll update you with. Also it seems that only PS3 has Cinavia detector in current, up-to-date firmware (others disabled it, like LG, or just announced it for future firmware).

Cons:
BDMV-REC is not implemented by all players. BD Players implemented Blu-ray standards as they saw fit to market their products. Not all of them have implemented AACS Recordable BDMV (BDMV-REC). PS3, being one of the best players, did.
If not on PS3, we encourage users to check the playback support for "AACS protected recordable BDMV" either with BD Player support or with a BD-RE.
PC players support protected BDAV, but not BDMV-REC.
Cinavia is not removed, just disabled. Well, whatever works We tried to provide you with a solution asap and this was the quickest.
We plan to add support for the above-mentioned protected BDAV which gives a much broader adoption among BD Players, but does not have all the features: no menu, no interactivity, no BD-live, it simply is a Movie-only format.
While this new solution disables Cinavia, we are also working on a removal solution.

As always, discussion is welcome and appreciated in this thread.

Best Regards,
Fengtao

Last edited by StormJumper; 15-03-2011 at 17:54.

rhazzon · 03-06-2011

I still don't understand how to back up a Cinavia dvd. I'm using the latest version of QT and it does NOT remove Cinavia. Is there something else I need to do?

*AGJ* · 03-06-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhazzon

I still don't understand how to back up a Cinavia dvd. I'm using the latest version of QT and it does NOT remove Cinavia. Is there something else I need to do?

No as DVDFab does not remove Cinavia from DVDs at the moment. Only does that for Blu-rays so you may need a DVD Player that does not support Cinavia protection.

rhazzon · 18-10-2011

Are we any closer to removing Cinavia protection on standard def DVD's?

Eidos · 26-10-2011

Is there any progress to solving the cinavia problem. The last 3 disks I purchased all have it and I hate having to pick which player my grandkids get to watch movies on. When will a solution be available.

hogger129 · 28-12-2011

I just bought Fast Five on Blu Ray and I am ripping it to PS3 format for playback from my external hard drive. Will Cinavia stop you if you have a copy of a legitimate version like I do? Or will it only stop you if it's like a pirated torrent download?

I thought this was on the new Harry Potter movie too - which I own a legal copy and backup of - and I did not have the error.

Also, I have heard that changing the audio settings to Optical something in the Sound Settings on a PS3 is one workaround to it. And that changing the time on the PS3 an hour ahead is another fix. I set mine a few years ahead so maybe that will work.

Just wondering if anybody can give me some kind of a heads up on this. Is this going to pretty much cut people off from watching anything except the legitimate copy of the movie in the devices? Or is it just to ensure that your copy was made from a legit copy of the film?

Seems like just another pain in the rear (like most DRM) so that you can only do so much with something you paid for.

hogger129 · 28-12-2011

After doing a little research on the subject, it seems what this does is it checks the audio stream with the original film (if it has the Cinavia protection on it), if it doesn't match the original, you get an error message.

So basically if I did a rip of a movie I purchased that had Cinavia on it, it shouldn't be a problem, should it?

**olyteddy** · 28-12-2011

Actually, that is exactly what will be a problem. If you rip the disk, the Cinavia 'watermark' will remain on the audio. If you then burn that rip to another disk and play that disk on a Cinavia infested device (such as your PS3) it will be detected as a copy and won't play.

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hogger129 · 28-12-2011

Well from what it sounds like, it's in the audio file. When I compress the file with DVDFab for a PS3 format, it converts the audio stream along with it and strips the watermark off, and when the Cinavia detects that it isn't there, that warning pops up.

So I would think the workaround to this would be to keep the audio file intact. And DVDFab does allow a direct backup copy - which keeps the Cinavia watermark and doesn't pop up the warning. If it goes unchanged, the Cinavia protection isn't triggered - therefore no warning. So basically you can't watch compressed movies off of an external HDD for playback on something like the PS3 if the movie you're compressing has the Cinavia.

The more and more DVD and Blu Rays that have this, the more likelihood of a workaround coming out. I'm not a bit worried.

Besides, isn't there a list of the films that DO have the Cinavia protection? The ones I saw posted earlier in the thread list a few titles (I think 12) that aren't really even that popular or worth watching IMO.

It's just kind of nice to be able to compress the movies onto an external HDD but I guess I won't be able to do that anymore on discs with this Cinavia stuff.

Just kind of wish Sony would have given me the choice since I do own the device. I'm not renting it from them. If I do something illegal with it (which I am not since making backup copies of a legitimate copy and/or shifting formats of a legit copy is totally legal under Fair Use), that's my fault and they have no obligation to protect me from it or force me to use the Cinavia stuff.

----------------

I can understand where they're coming from - because the pirates on the torrent sites compress the files so that they can be downloaded, but they're screwing people out of watching movies they legally purchased and want to store electronically.

I see this as a breach of Fair Use, too, since I'm not stealing the movie, just converting it to another format - which isn't illegal.

hogger129 · 28-12-2011

I'm just going to say this in case there are people spying on me from the movie companies - I am not going to buy a movie that has this Cinavia crap on it because you're breaching Fair Use laws. If you want to stop pirates, track them from torrent sites and sue them. Don't punish people like me who aren't breaking the law by making it impossible for me to electronically store copies of movies I legally purchased.

hogger129 · 28-12-2011

That was easy. I think I just found a way to circumvent the Cinavia protection on a PS3. Under sound settings (assuming you're using an HDMI cable), select Optical Output option instead of the HDMI. It will ask you to select the audio types. Pick em all. Click OK when it pops up. Your sound should stop working. Not to worry. There's another option that says "Allow Multiple Output." Set it to "On." Sound comes back. No more Cinavia BS warnings.

**StormJumper** · 28-12-2011

Thanks hogger129 for posting that info

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hogger129 · 28-12-2011

I don't own any Cinavia protected content, but if someone does, I'd like to see if this actually does work. I found some forums where people were saying this is one workaround.

**olyteddy** · 28-12-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by hogger129

Well from what it sounds like, it's in the audio file. When I compress the file with DVDFab for a PS3 format, it converts the audio stream along with it and strips the watermark off, and when the Cinavia detects that it isn't there, that warning pops up.....

It is in the audio, however you can't remove it without wrecking the audio. The watermark triggers the player to check if the disk is a 'trusted source' (has AACS protection). A copy doesn't have AACS protection and will therefore shut the audio down. This generally only applies to copies made to optical disks, so playing a BD from a hard drive is still possible, but probably not on a PS3.

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hogger129 · 28-12-2011

The weird thing is that Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part 2, as well as Fast Five are supposed to have this Cinavia protection, but when I am watching my compressed rips from my external HDD hooked up to my PS3, I get no error. I own legitimate copies of both films purchased from Best Buy btw. That could be why I'm not getting the Cinavia error.

I didn't change anything on my PS3 and have the latest firmware, so maybe they either quit putting it in the movies, or DVDFab bypasses it if you are ripping a legit copy of the film.

Somewhere I heard that the Cinavia stuff only stops telesync editions (camcorder) and R5 editions of the films, so maybe if we're ripping from a legit copy, we're unaffected. What I mean is maybe this audio watermark is only in the movies played in the theater so that people can't cam it. In which case I could care less about Cinavia.

I just don't want it to be where we buy a legit copy and rip it to an external HDD or to a backup disc and it stops you from playing back the content on the device infested with Cinavia. Because that IS a breach of fair use. I paid for the content therefore I should be able to shift formats and make backup copies. I'm not redistributing them. And instead of going after pirates, what it sounds like Sony and other film studios are trying to do is to punish paying customers who aren't doing anything illegal with content they purchased.

Another thing that sort of ticks me off is that Sony never even gave their customers a choice to decide whether or not they wanted to use this. After all, they did purchase the PS3 system. They didn't rent it from Sony. I imagine XBOX 360 will have Cinavia on it sooner or later too. I had a 360, the only problem I saw with it is that I didn't want to pay for online service.

And if it really comes down to the point where I can no longer watch rips through the PS3 of movies that I purchased legit copies of - I will turn to the iTunes Store and watch movies from there through my iPod Touch and Apple A/V Cable. The only trouble with iTunes movies is that the sound quality is poor. Could just be my iPod or cables but I swear the sound is always crackling when I watch them through my TV.

Last edited by hogger129; 28-12-2011 at 15:22.

*cholla* · 28-12-2011

@ hogger129 , It's a game of finger pointing . There are a group of various associations that have control over patents . For example: The DVD Copy Control Association If you want to manufacture a DVD drive that can read a disc with CSS protection you have to buy the patent from them & agree to have certain restrictions in what the drive can do.
Either you pay & agree or you can't legally manufacture or sell the drive.
I'm sure control on PS3 patents is similar.
Add MPAA, RIAA , OSTA , etc. into the mix & you get the picture.

I do agree it is bad we pay for product & the cost of technology that restricts our use.
It is a circle there is no stop to that I see. Outside of government control & I sure don't see that happening .
That would be government control of these associations in a pro consumer way.

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*debro* · 29-12-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by cholla

@ hogger129 , It's a game of finger pointing . There are a group of various associations that have control over patents . For example: The DVD Copy Control Association If you want to manufacture a DVD drive that can read a disc with CSS protection you have to buy the patent from them & agree to have certain restrictions in what the drive can do.
Either you pay & agree or you can't legally manufacture or sell the drive.
I'm sure control on PS3 patents is similar.
Add MPAA, RIAA , OSTA , etc. into the mix & you get the picture.

I do agree it is bad we pay for product & the cost of technology that restricts our use.
It is a circle there is no stop to that I see. Outside of government control & I sure don't see that happening .
That would be government control of these associations in a pro consumer way.

I understand that cinavia only affects PS3 users on original firmware.
If you use ANY cfw with showtime, cinavia protection is ignored.
If you use REBUG cfw, cinavia has been disabled by default.

Just another example of people doing the right thing being screwed.

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hogger129 · 29-12-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by debro

I understand that cinavia only affects PS3 users on original firmware.
If you use ANY cfw with showtime, cinavia protection is ignored.
If you use REBUG cfw, cinavia has been disabled by default.

Just another example of people doing the right thing being screwed.

Would you mind explaining to me how exactly that is done? I have done some Google searches and can't quite figure out where and how you get the software to install onto the PS3. If this is not the proper area for such a question, let me know and I will repost it in the proper area.

If it isn't too difficult, I would like to do it. But I'd rather not have to "jailbreak" my PS3 in order to do it.

I do have another PS3 system - the "fat" one, so if it requires jailbreaking, I'll send it in, have the YLOD fixed and do it to that one.

hogger129 · 30-12-2011

I think I am just going to go the iTunes Store route. I have an external hard drive to back up my purchases. I have an iPod and an A/V cable to hook up to my Toshiba TV. I don't really care. I will pay once, back up my purchase, and then watch it to my heart's content. This is the way it should be universally with movies and any "intellectual property" that you purchase a copy of. Not this crap where making backups of DVDs you bought is frowned upon and next to impossible to do (as with my experience attempting to rip The Dark Knight into a digital format) or where they put all these copy protections into it to stop pirates from compressing - but in the process (and this was my experience) - screwing people whose intention is not to pirate in the first place (my intention was to rip and compress so I could watch through my PS3).

Piracy has and always will exist. The more copy protections they put into movies, the more legitimate customers they piss off and the more people who will turn to piracy. Just like with this Cinavia stuff. If you want to make a backup copy that's okay - even though it can be redistributed to people who don't want to buy a legit copy. But if you want to rip it to a digital format to view from a PS3 system, nope, they make that impossible to do because of the actions of a few (people who compress and redistribute).

I think the way I am deciding to go is a good route and it stays out of the gray and red areas of the law. I am just sick and tired of all this making it impossible and in the MPAA/RIAA's view - illegal - to backup content I purchased a legitimate copy of.

If the film studios want to stop piracy (and actually data shows that their profits are up more than ever even though there are more pirates now than ever), they should just change the DMCA to say that it's legal to do whatever you want with a DVD/Blu Ray that you paid for as long as you own a legit copy. The penalty for redistributing it should be higher. If they just did that, I think 95% of the piracy would stop. But nope. The people who actually make the movies - such as the actors - don't actually make much off the movies. The film studios who are already raking in millions just have to go out of their way to screw people who aren't cutting into their profits significantly.

iTunes will get my money now, not the film studios whose DVDs and Blu Rays are impossible to back up.

**Plus iTunes allows you to back up your movies to a disc in case your external hard drive fails.

Last edited by hogger129; 30-12-2011 at 05:17.

*debro* · 30-12-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by hogger129

Would you mind explaining to me how exactly that is done? I have done some Google searches and can't quite figure out where and how you get the software to install onto the PS3. If this is not the proper area for such a question, let me know and I will repost it in the proper area.

If it isn't too difficult, I would like to do it. But I'd rather not have to "jailbreak" my PS3 in order to do it.

I do have another PS3 system - the "fat" one, so if it requires jailbreaking, I'll send it in, have the YLOD fixed and do it to that one.

Requires converting your PS3 to Custom Firmware (CFW) (non official firmware). If your PS3 is at firmware greater than 3.55, there are extra steps required to get it back to 3.55 - you will have to google.

You must have your firmware at 3.55 or 3.41, and then flash the KMEAW, REBUG or other CFW firmware.

The REBUG firmware automatically disables the Cinavia. For KMEAW or other CFW, refer to here.
Install the pkg - Cinavia is turned off -> http://rebug.me/?p=1227

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sjg · 30-12-2011

I. tried to back up 2 of my new blu-rays using Blu-ray Copy for Movie Only setting. Smurfs and Friends with Benefits both showed as Cinavia protected. I follwed instruction on screen to make copy keeping protection so it can be watched on blu-Ray players. The problem is it wont play at all on either my Sony or Lg blu-ray players. The players indicate that a blu-Ray is present, but wont play anything. When I change tracks on the sony, they change, however the screen stays black and there is no sound either. On my LG I cant even get it play black screen. What can I do?
I had removed (unchecked) the 2 alternate english AC3 audio tracks other than the HD DTS on these, is that wrong??? At the price of the Blu-Ray bd-r discs, I hate to create coasters, and the time to back up(3 hrs) is unreal). I have backed up other blu-rays from my collection with no problem, both before and after these two back to back issues.
Please advise
Steve
Sorry, I had posted this question in a stand alone question. I see the moderator will only answer in appropriate folder so I reposted here

**olyteddy** · 30-12-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by hogger129

I think I am just going to go the iTunes Store route. I have an external hard drive to back up my purchases.
...
**Plus iTunes allows you to back up your movies to a disc in case your external hard drive fails.

iTunes, like most other DRM protected stuff, does require access to a license (I believe every time you wish to view the content). Not likely the iTunes license servers will fail or go bankrupt but a lot of folks lost 'purchased' music when Micro$oft dropped its music service and shut down its DRM servers...

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sjg · 30-12-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjg

I. tried to back up 2 of my new blu-rays using Blu-ray Copy for Movie Only setting. Smurfs and Friends with Benefits both showed as Cinavia protected. I follwed instruction on screen to make copy keeping protection so it can be watched on blu-Ray players. The problem is it wont play at all on either my Sony or Lg blu-ray players. The players indicate that a blu-Ray is present, but wont play anything. When I change tracks on the sony, they change, however the screen stays black and there is no sound either. On my LG I cant even get it play black screen. What can I do?
I had removed (unchecked) the 2 alternate english AC3 audio tracks other than the HD DTS on these, is that wrong??? At the price of the Blu-Ray bd-r discs, I hate to create coasters, and the time to back up(3 hrs) is unreal). I have backed up other blu-rays from my collection with no problem, both before and after these two back to back issues.
Please advise
Steve
Sorry, I had posted this question in a stand alone question. I see the moderator will only answer in appropriate folder so I reposted here

I went through process again for friends with benefits and did not check the box to keep coding. The process was a success.
Thanks all
Steve

hogger129 · 31-12-2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by olyteddy

iTunes, like most other DRM protected stuff, does require access to a license (I believe every time you wish to view the content). Not likely the iTunes license servers will fail or go bankrupt but a lot of folks lost 'purchased' music when Micro$oft dropped its music service and shut down its DRM servers...

It doesn't require me to punch in my account information every time I watch it. If I pay for it once, it allows me to watch it as many times as I want as long as I'm watching it on an Apple device such as an iPod or like an Apple TV or something. I can also watch it on my iTunes on my laptop. It's just that if I take it and try to watch it on someone else's computer, I'm required to punch in my account information to authorize another account to play my purchases. You're only allowed up to five I believe.

I just think it's a whole heck of a lot easier to do it this way. Then I can copy all my purchases to an external hard drive as a backup, then whenever I want to watch something, copy it out of there to my computer and load it onto my iPod. I'm never prompted to punch in my account information when doing that. So I'm not really worried about not being able to watch my purchases any time soon.

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