Panasonic DMR-ES15 - I think I found a keeper...

I had tried the Lite-On DD-A100GX, partially because of the form factor (it fit in my entertainment center nicely) and was pretty happy with it despite some quirks - until I tested the RCA inputs. I tried the front and back ports and found that when I input any signal, the quality was noticeably degraded over the original signal. After extensive testing, I narrowed it down to the player itself, so sadly had to return it.

Next up, even though it would not fit well in my entertainment center, I opted to give the Panasonic DMR-DS15 a try, given that it was only $159 USD, in stock at the same store, and handled all the key formats - both plus and minus. DVD-RAM was a non-factor in the purchase, as I intend to stick with DVD-RW if at all possible.

Anywho, after a bunch of testing, it's looking like I may have found a keeper. The input quality is OUTSTANDING, which means my VHS tapes look pretty darn spiffy when I transfer them over to DVD. The LP setting looks substantially better than the Lite-On's, probably due to the fact that it has a higher resolution but fits in the same 4 hour setup. The EP setting can be 6 hours or 8 hours. Video quality is the same in both modes, but in the 8 hour mode, sound quality is reduced, which is no biggie for me on normal TV shows. I did some test recording and found that EP is pretty acceptable for regular shows, but not for anything heavy on the action.

The unit is NOT as user-friendly as the Lite-On was in terms of the on-screen interface, but once you get the hang of it, it's usable. It is slow to start and slow to shut-down too, but again, for me the issue was input quality more than anything, and it seems to deliver.

Like the Lite-On, the Panasonic has some very odd DVD+RW quirks that just annoy the heck out of me. For example, if I'm playing a VHS tape and the tape finishes, by default it rewinds, ejects and shuts down the VCR. So the DVD recorder is no longer receiving a signal. I have the recorder set to stop after 2 hours, lets say, so it will have enough time to record the movie and then close down and be ready for the next programmed event.

If I use a DVD+RW and the signal drops due to VCR shut down, the files are corrupted and are unreadable by the unit or the PC. However, if I use a DVD-RW, the files are not corrupted and I can Finalize the disk and copy the VIDEO_TS folder over to the PC for processing.

Another thing is that the DVD+RW folders on this unit (VIDEO_RM, VIDEO_TS) produce files that I must first process with DVD Shrink via Re-Author in order to be able to load them up in Ulead DVD MovieFactory 5. If I stick with DVD-RW, there is no such issue.

Further, if I do multiple show recordings on the same DVD+RW, it says I must create a TOP MENU in order to view the recorded video on other machines. So, I do this, but am unable to open those recordings on the PC with any program I have. If I stick with DVD-RW, it doesn't seem to matter how many shows I have recorded. I just finalize the DVD-RW and I can read it with no problem at all, into both DVD Shrink and Ulead.

I had similar quirks with DVD+RW on the Lite-On and it drove me NUTS!!!

One more annoying thing with this unit and DVD+RW disks. It will only fast-forward at 2x, 6x and then 12x. But if I use DVD-RW, it will fast forward at 2x, 10x, 20x, 30x, 70x and 200x.

Also, the Lite-On had it set so that each mode had a few extra minutes attached to it. The LP mode was 4 hours 6 minutes and like 30 seconds. Meaning, you could start recording each show 1 minute before and 1 minute after the hour so you made sure you got all the intros. If you had 3 shows, 2 extra minutes per show and you still had enough to record a 4th show - just enough. The Panasonic LP is at 4:00 exactly - with no extra minutes. So, if you give the previous 3 an extra minute, you end up without enough time to record that 4th show. It may seem minor, but it is a big deal to me, actually.

The only disadvantage I have found to the DVD-RW format with this player is that I am unable to read the disks with my BenQ 1620, BenQ 1640 and Pioneer 106. They are readable by my Acer DVD-ROM that I pulled down off the shelf, and the Lite-On DVD burner in my eMac.

So, in summary:

THE PROS:

Relatively low cost
Oustanding signal quality from AV inputs
Has not only AV and DV but S-Video inputs
Good to Very Good encoding quality in all modes
Remote has many features including basic TV functions for supported TV's
Acceptable EP recording quality (up to 8 hours)
Handles DVD-RW disks properly
Increased LP Resolution

THE CONS:

Slow to start up and slow to shut down
Has all sorts of issues with DVD+RW disks
Limits each mode to exactly X number of hours
No adustable auto-chapter setting that I can find
Finalized DVD-RW disks not readable in BenQ & Pioneer burners
17" wide - too wide - and looks kinda hinky - available in Silver only
Interface and remote not very user friendly compared to the Lite-On
No obvious visual cue that the unit is ON or OFF (no green light, no faded clock, etc.)

So, overall, I like the unit, but would have preferred the Lite-On if it had not had signal quality issues. Even with the quirks, I liked the Lite-On better in terms of ease of use. But, the Panasonic simply has great recording quality and AV input quality, and that trumps all else including form factor, remote and ease of use, at least for me. Plus, the Panasonic handles DVD-RW disks as one would expect, without the additional VIDEO_RM folder and its associated navigation format quirks.

Would I recommend it to others? Yes, especially if they are familiar with electronics, how to set things up, etc. N00bs might be better off with a more user-friendly model.

Thought I'd share. Hope it helps someone.

Thanks,

BK

"Finalized DVD-RW disks not readable in BenQ & Pioneer burners"

I actually think thats an issue with the burners not the recorder. I have the same problems with the JVC and LG recorders.

The newly purchased Lite-On SHM-165H6S I installed on my system is able to read the media on my PC no problem, thankfully.

having more titles

deleting titles in between
(not the last title)

the space does not come available

deleting the last title
the space comes available

using +RW

is this normally the case with dvd recorders ?

Thanks for Reply

Remote Control

Have Sony Television

can't get the code of my TV in the Panasonic Remote Controll

Some Help
Much Appreciated

Look at manual. I have no problem with my Sony KV29Re10k.

I just ordered a DMR ES15, I have 2 LiteOn LVW 5005s and have replaced the drives in both. I have no experence using DVD-RAM and had no joy with DVD-RWs - so this will be a learning experence for me. My plan is to hook the ES15 in my living room to my DVR and use it inplace of the SVHS VCR now used. My LiteOn 5005s in the den connected to a second DVR, VCR, cable box to do the copy work.
My supply of blank disks is mainly TY-R and TY+R with a few Verbatim +RWs, a few no name -RWs, and Maxell DVD-RAMs. What should I order? DVD-RAMs will only play on the ES15 and one of my computer drives. I never had much luck with DVD-RWs in the past. I would like to try some DVD+R DL. I hope that movies recorded on DVD-RAM or DVD-RW can be burned to DVD-R or DVD+R with few problems.
The quality of recordings made on the LiteOn 5005s were OK at 1 or 2 hours but not as good as I hoped for a 3 or 4 hour and not good at 6 hour, OK for VCR quality but I am hoping for more.
My history with Panasonic products has not been very good so I cross my fingers.
The LiteOn was so EZ to hook up the book was not needed, and hacks and updating firmware also EZ, I was one of the first to learn how to replace the drives (mid 2005).
I see very few hardware tricks or hacks for the ES15 - so it has few problems or no one has come up with any.
Do you have to update the firmware on the ES15??? Can it be made reagon free??

I know of no updates to the ES15. Sorry.

But, even in EP (8 hour recording) normal TV recordings are totally watchable.

I just recorded HEROES and CSI Miami, one in EP and one in LP and the EP looked just fine, though CSI Miami looked a bit better when fast motion was going on.

I have had my absolute best luck with the DVD-RW format. I record, I Finalize and then I can take my DVD-RW right over to my machine, put it in my Lite-On 165H6S, copy the VIDEO_TS folder to my hard drive and open it in DVD Shrink, DVD MovieFactory 5, etc.

I hope the unit works as well for you as it has for me. One thing that it really does have over the Lite-On DD-A100GX that I had is the AV signal input quality. That and the double resolution LP and usable EP recording equals a win in my book.

Lite-On may have been king in terms of hackability, but that's not what I was interested in. It was quality that mattered most to me.

That said, the Sima CT-200 should take care of whatever issues there might be with protections, I would hope.

Thanks for the input, I should have mine in a few days, and as my DVRs are near full it will get a work out.

Any good picks for DVD-RWs, DVD-RAM or DVD+RW DL???

Verbatim DVD-RW's are good. My TDK DVD-RW's seem to work too.

It comes with a Panasonic DVD-RAM, but I have not bothered with it.

I have not been using Dual Layer. Just simple, single-layer DVD-RW's. No muss, no fuss.

Enjoy, and good luck.

Excellent thread for those of us looking for something better than liteons. ((My 5005 picture is fine but media compatibility is an unending battle. My 5045 works like a charm as I transfer the entire hard drive to my computer for editing into straight data mpg files.))

I thought the whole point of RW media was that it did NOT have to be finalized in order to use/play in the computer?? I finalized a +RW once by accident and I still have not been able to get it erased to use again. Any advice on this??

I'm in this thread as I have been looking at that Panasonic and especially to use with RAM disks as they are supposed to be "error free." That is yet to be seen, but if they work with RW media, then that would be even better??

Thanks for the info. Good stuff! //// Bobbo.

The DVD+RW disks do not have to be finalized, I believe. In fact, my Panasonic won't let me finalize one at all.

However, I have had trouble with both machines using DVD+RW's, so I do not use them any longer.

On the Lite-On in particular, the addition of the VIDEO_RM folder caused me compatibility issues when trying to read in the finished product, even in Ulead DVD MovieFactory. While that RM folder is also present for DVD+RW recordings in the Panasonic, it did not seem to cause as much havok as on the Lite-On, though it was still a pain to deal with the VIDEO_RM folder, depending on what app I used.

On the Panasonic, I found that if I recorded on a DVD+RW and the source signal was somehow lost, the disk would be left in a bad state and I was unable to read the disk in my machine. I noticed this when I was recording DUNE from my VHS tape to a DVD+RW disk in the unit. I had simply set the Panasonic to record for 3 hours by pressing the REC button a few times (goes to 30, 60, 90, 2 hours, 3 hours, etc.) and had the VHS tape playing and the input set properly. My thought was, that once the video tape was done, it would do its normal thing, which is to stop, do a full rewind then shut-down, and then the Panasonic would stop at 3 hours and I could copy the DVD+RW over no sweat.

But, after a lot of discovery involved in finding out why that did not work, I found out that if the signal is lost, the DVD+RW has no means of recovering or cleaning up the data table on the disk. It doesn't do a proper ending sequence / close procedure and the data is left unreadable.

I got around it for DVD+RW by setting my VCR to do an AUTOPLAY instead of shutting off, so the signal would keep going and when the Panasonic hit 3 hours, it would stop and handle the final table closure properly.

Well, that was kind of a pain, cause I had to go in there and clip off the extra time, etc. and I wanted to find a more elegant solution.

Turned out that the FINALIZE procedure for all other media (including the DVD-RW) handled that clean up no problem, so when I switched to using a DVD-RW, I put the VCR back into regular mode, and at the end of the 2+ hours of tape, the VCR rewound and shut off and the recorder kept recording null signal until 3 hours hit. This time, however, when I finalized the DVD-RW, it properly ended the session and I was able to read the VIDEO_TS folder onto my PC with no problem (in my Lite-On drive, that is).

With DVD-RW on the Panasonic there is no VIDEO_RM folder to mess with, so the thing is nice and clean. One single VIDEO_TS folder, session all closed up, everything works.

So that is why I opted for DVD-RW instead of DVD+RW.

Waiting for my ES15 to arrive I downloaded the Operating Instruction. I hope the unit is easier in use than the Instructions. I can't even find out how to set the recording speed (quality).

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Last edited by CCRomeo; 09-11-2006 at 12:26.

Panasonic DMR ES25/ES15:

Main improvements over the LiteOn 5005:

Improved Input Quality
Front s-video input
Improved record resolution at LP (500 lines) and EP speeds
Flexible Recording fits recording into the remaining space up to 8 hours
No video quality loss 6 hours to 8 hours (some audio loss)
Records to Dual Layer discs (in 2 sessions)
Records and plays DVD RAM discs (with special features)
Works well with DVD-RW discs (faster prep improved playback functions)
SD card reader (ES25 only)
Chasing Playback
Simultaneous Record and Play
HDMI interface (for HD TVs, ES25 only)
Remote can control some TV sets (on/off, vol, ch.)


Main disadvantages:

Slower start up and ending times (except for DVD-RAM)
Harder to use remote and interface
No hacks to remove Macrovision and Region protection
Has issues with DVD+RW media
No adustable auto-chapter setting
No way to repace a defective drive
Higher price

sorry I posted this in 2 places MY BAD

Early impressions of the ES15/25 from a Liteon user:
Impressive Video quality at 1,2,4 hours; better than Liteon at 1,2,3,4 hours.
Video quality at 6-8 hours; better than Liteon at 6 hours,
but the Liteon gives a few extra minutes at each speed.
Slim and quite, more options make it a bit harder to learn.
Many functions take more steps than the Liteon.
Works best with DVD-RAM and DVD-RW which are harder to find than other DVD media.
Macrovision and Region could be a problem for some.
Impressive FF RW speeds.
REC button too close to the REC MODE button.

all in all a very impressive recorder:
The Liteon 5005 first made in 2004 as a VCR replacement EZ to use.
The ES15/25 made in 2006 is an improvement in many but not all ways.

With a few improvements this could be the VCR replacement many are looking for.

A 95 min movie recorded with FR to quality media SP mode is very impressive!

I just recordered Doctor Zhivago (2002) both parts 1 & 2 to one DVD at LP 4 hours (video and audio excellent, hard to tell from the origional discs); also recorded JFK from my DVR Flex Rec 3 hours 10 minutes (video and audio excellent plus). Both recordings to TYG002 discs. I'm very impressed (JFK was much better than when recorded on a LVW5005 at 4 hours). I tried recording Band of Brothers parts 1-6 at EP 6 hours (results OK but colors a bit off and dark, but still better than Liteon at SLP).

My setup I found setting onput and input to lighter was best, instructions for making titles very poor, recording to 16x DVD-Rs were fine. Don't understant why Panasonic.com does not sell 4.7gb DVD-RWs but Imation DVD-RW work fine. I only gave DVD-RAM a quick try but works fine, yet to give DVD+RW a full trial, SD card reader works fine, too bad it won't record to Video CDs. The ES25 seems to accept more media brands and types of DVDs than the LVW5005. Playback of the recorded DVD-Rs was great on all my DVD players and my computers.

Does any one have the resolution and bit rate numbers for Panasonic recorders?
It should have some indication of on or standby (like a time display).
Pause and Input select on the front would be nice.
REC button too close to REC MODE button.

Compact style fits great ontop of my repalyTV.
I wish for cable box IF control more than DVD-RAM or HDMi.
I wish for an internal fan (it does get warm).
Needs adjustable auto chapter settings.
Needs zoom and/or aspect adjustment.
Instruction need a guide to the remote and what the button does: AUDIO[A], DISPLAY[B]...


This is a great DVD recorder, could be a bit much for a first time user, sure hope it lasts!

Sounds pretty decent! I'm glad the quality is so good. I was impressed by it as well.

It is certainly not as user-friendly as the Lite-On, and I TOTALLY agree with you on the need for an ON/STANDBY indicator. That is one thing that I was surprised about. No red or green indicator light, no difference in brightness on the display like some units have (dim when off, bright when on) - nothing.

As for the resolution, when I copied them over to the hard drive and opened them up in Ulead DVD MovieFactory, the info was listed. I believe all shows are VBR, but I don't remember all the info for the various modes. I could run a test recording of all different modes and then read them into the system and report back on what each mode characteristics are.

It is nice that there is a simple toggle on the remote for each of the modes (ep, sp, lp, etc.) so it makes it easy to record like 1 minute chunks.

Anyway, thanks for the good feedback info. Hopefully it will help others looking to buy a unit.

OK, I did a test recording of all 4 main modes. The EP mode was set to 8 hours, which does not affect the picture quality over the 6 hour mode, only audio quality. So, here is what I found:

XP - 720 x 480 VBR Max 9334
SP - 720 x 480 VBR Max 9334
LP - 720 x 480 VBR Max 9558
EP - 352 x 240 VBR Max 9686

Ulead DVD MovieFactory 5 does not report avg bit rate, only max, but it is clear that the LP mode does have that extra resolution that helps give it higher quality. I would guess that the bit rate is the only diff between XP, SP and LP, while EP seems to go to MPEG-1 instead of MPEG-2 like the other modes.

Hope that helps.

Yes this is an excellent feature of some Panasonic recorders: full D1 resolution in a 4-hour mode. It's nice to hear some practical experience with this.

BTW judging by the max bitrate for EP mode at 352 x 240, it could still be MPEG-2 at half-D1... is the MPEG-1 encoding what DVDMF reports?

I'm a bit confused. I am getting different info from the initial preview screen you get when you do the IMPORT DVD Video or DVD-VR files from a disc or hard drive and from right-mouse clicking and selecting PROPERTIES from the context menu.

I went ahead and uninstalled ALL of my Ulead stuff just to be 100% sure, then did a fresh re-install of the base Ulead DVD MovieFactory 5 program, then downloaded the 3 Service Pack 1 patches and installed those fresh, but still get the discrepency.

I had been testing Ulead DVD Movie Factory 5 Plus, but ended up purchasing only the core Ulead DVD Movie Factory 5 product (lacks data and music burning, etc.) but I think the patches to that core product should bring it up to the same version number (5.0.0189.1) that is in the PLUS product. I hope so, and assume if so, both versions would have the same behavior.

For example, for the EP recording (lowest quality level - 8 hour mode)

The PREVIEW dialog reports:

TV system: 525/60 NTSC
Attribute: 24 bits, 352 x 240, 4:3
Frame rate: 29.970 Frames/sec
Data rate: Variable bit rate (MAX 9686 kbps)

The MEDIA CLIP PROPERTIES dialog reports:

File format: NTSC DVD

Video type: MPEG-2 Video
Video Attributes: 24 bits, 352 x 240, 4:3
Video Frame rate: 29.970 frames/sec
Video Data rate: Variable bit rate (Max. 2000 kbps)

Audio type: Dolby Digital Audio
Audio Attributes: 48000 Hz
Audio Layer: None
Audio Bit rate: 128 kbps

So, it does appear to report it as MPEG-2 Video, but the Variable Bit Rate has a substantially lower kbps rating at 2000 instead of the 9686 listed in the preview dialog.

I think I'll eventually send this info to Ulead to see if it is a bug or if they just don't do a full computation in the preview window, etc.

OK, these are each of the 4 modes available in the recorder. XP, SP, LP, EP. Below is the key info that shows in the MEDIA PROPERTIES dialog after I did the import, as opposed to just the summary info in the Preview dialog:

XP MODE:
--------
MPEG-2 Video, Upper Field First
24 bits, 720 x 480, 4:3
29.970 frames/sec
Variable bit rate (Max. 9334 kbps)
Dolby Digital Audio
48000 Hz
384 kbps


SP MODE:
--------
MPEG-2 Video, Upper Field First
24 bits, 720 x 480, 4:3
29.970 frames/sec
Variable bit rate (Max. 9334 kbps)
Dolby Digital Audio
48000 Hz
384 kbps


LP MODE:
--------
MPEG-2 Video, Upper Field First
24 bits, 720 x 480, 4:3
29.970 frames/sec
Variable bit rate (Max. 2800 kbps)
Dolby Digital Audio
48000 Hz
256 kbps


EP MODE:
--------
MPEG-2 Video
24 bits, 352 x 240, 4:3
29.970 frames/sec
Variable bit rate (Max. 2000 kbps)
Dolby Digital Audio
48000 Hz
128 kbps

So, you can see, the Variable Bit Rate MAX is different, and the audio kbps is listed. LP and EP have lower VBR max rates (2800 max, 2000 max) as well as reduced audio quality (256 kbps and 128 kbps).

Though the SP mode has about the same MAX VBR setting as XP, I would think that XP has a higher average bit rate as it can only record ONE hour instead of the TWO hours that the SP mode can handle.

There it is for those interested.

Thanks for the info
the numbers tell the story: the ES15/25 at 4 hours LP as good as the LVW 5005 at 1-2 hours

My DMR-ES25 works great so far, media I have tried:
DVD-RAM Panasonic and Maxell
DVD-RW

I have tried nearly every combination of DVD-RW, DVD+RW, DVD-R, DVD+R on the ES25 and LVW5005 and only one combo for record then play on both did not work. (oddly the panasonic DVD S52 will play them).
DVD+RW recorded on the Liteon would not play on the ES25 (wanted to format). Some combination work better than others, DVD-RW work better on the ES25, DVD+RW work better on the Liteon, and of course the ES25 can record to DL and RAM the Liteon can not. Since I have both it is nice to know I can exchange disks without major problems.