My thoughts on Piracy

GameOwl · 16-03-2003

I've never ran another PC Game security besides Safe Disk and SecureROM in Amercia. While I hear of Tages,StarForc ect. securites accross the world. This is interesting most likely since one of Sony's SecureROM departments is in America and Macrovision is based in California. Macrovision is desperate for a better PC Game Security,and Sony knows SecureROM new has been beaten. I wouldn't be surprised if they read these fourms and other one's to find out what we are doing right so they can't counter that and improve there security. Small third party software companies see this a way to make programs to make a copyable CD/DVD for the End User to make a legit single back up copy if they are the copyrighted owner. Software companies see this as a profit to gain for them since disc media security has been so infourmative throughout the internet today like fourms and websites like these. In America around the year I believe in 1994 there was a law that if you are the legal copyrighted own of a disc you are allowed to make one back up copy. I feel this law will eventually be broken and a single back up copy in America will no loner be legal. Just look how early versions of Clone CD has Amplify Weak Sectors/Hide CD-r Media isn't supposed to be used in America and Japan cause its illegal. Its like a war on drugs its never gonna end I believe,to stop piracy for good. I myself believe software companies should get there deserved profit. Its interesting how people won't and believe stealing from a store is wrong but yet pirate copyrighted media;they believe its not as bad because they think only a few people do it. One person says "only a few do it" then everybody thinks that and it goes into large numbers and big time money gets lost to the companies who made the product. Mainly using a product without paying for it is biting the hand that feeds you. People pirate for many different reasons: 1) They wanna gain a profit. 2) They believe products are overpriced. 3) They think its cool to break a law. 4) They do it for friends and/or family. 5)They dislike they company and/or company. 6)They believe things should be free.

When it all comes down to it piracy of intlectual property hurts the economy,and put people and software companies out of jobs and business. Picture you working hard for your paycheck at your job and then seeing a large quanity of money on the paystub deducted by welfare knowing some people on welfare don't deserve to be on it. That is how movies/audio/software companies feel when there interlectual property is pirated. I know some people go to these fourms for reasons I won't say here. All I'm asking is think of what your doing,think of what I said. Sincerely GameOwl

*G@M3FR3@K* · 16-03-2003

Nice thoughts but I'll move this thread to our living room.

baracus · 16-03-2003

I think the real reasons people don't view it in the same light as shoplifting, is because it's not the same thing. Which is why pirates are NOT prosecuted for theft, rather they are prosecuted for copyright violations (Infringement, etc.).

Quote:

2) They believe products are overpriced.

It's not without reason they believe this either, look at the price fixing on audio CDs that was recently in the news. Look at Microsoft, and it's super-fair licensing agreements along with its many legal battles.

Quote:

3) They think its cool to break a law.

Speeding is also breaking the law, I don't think being "cool" is at the root of it. A lot of people are fairly ignorant as to the legality of it as well.

Quote:

4) They do it for friends and/or family.

There's a big one, with the price of some software. How many people really want to make their cash-strapped college-student brother pay 500$ for Office and XP?

Another big reason that I believe applies to games and music especially: there is a LOT of utter shit being crammed onto store shelves lately. Simply put, some folks get tired of wasting their hard earned dough on bug ridden, rushed, incomplete, or just plain crappy in many cases, games and audio CDs. It's not a legitimate excuse, but it still plays a big role in it, I believe.

The problem we're facing is that in the digital age, the old laws and ways of seeing things are simply not going to cut it. We can only wait and see how it goes, hopefully the big corporations don't win, they have enough power in government already.

DryBaboon · 16-03-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by GameOwl
People pirate for many different reasons: 1) They wanna gain a profit. 2) They believe products are overpriced. 3) They think its cool to break a law. 4) They do it for friends and/or family. 5)They dislike they company and/or company. 6)They believe things should be free.

I think pirating for money is obviously different.
The majority of pirating is for none of the above reasons - simply because we know we can get away with it. Lots of us would do much nastier things if we thought we could get away with it. If you're not particularly prone to feeling guilt (as a result of whatever moral system you've inherited or cooked up) then you'll see piracy etc as gain for yourself without any consequences.
The argument that it bites the hand that feeds us is not transparent enough to influence our actions. The only thing that could stop normal people cracking/ pirating software and not paying the people who make it is fear, and there's no reason for that. At the moment.

Ever (foolishly) attempted to use any windows F1 help search, where whatever you search for, it seems to come up with preaching about piracy?

Why isn't piracy pronounced as in Cons- ?

MLS · 17-03-2003

I don't think that piracy is hurting the game market as much as people think. If you look at the percentage of games released that are multiplayer, and require a cdkey to play online, it constitutes a heavy majority. People may download a pirated copy of the game, and check out single player, and if it seems like a fun game, purchase the real thing to be able to play online. The only problem with this is the single player games, since there is no incentive to purchase a single player game, perhaps someone will come to the realization that they should make a pseudo single-player game, where all the levels are stored on a server and people log in to play them alone, or with friends (a la MMORPGs). This allows for the game to expand at the will of the company who makes it, making for a much more 'replayable' single player game.
The problem with this, is that the companies will lose the customers who do download games to try them out, and buy them if they like them, the solution to this is good demos.. Hopefully game companies will pay more attention to demos as I think they are more important than they realize.

One thing that does irk me is when people say they pirate because they can't afford it, as though this somehow justifies the act. There are many things I can't afford, such as a Porshe, my own helicopter, the playboy mansion... But it doesn't mean I have the right to steal them.

/MLS

GameOwl · 17-03-2003

I would have to agree. Its a war out there. Some pirates tell me that they pirate cause software is to buggy and glitchy. But to think that there is so much programming needed in making things work,stable,and compatiable ect. That they feel it shouldn't be paid for in full price. I like these fourms its interesting on peoples views all over the world and how they see things.

baracus · 17-03-2003

I think a lot of people keep mislabelling it stealing. Piracy isn't stealing, it's unauthorized duplication/distribution (copyright violation). If you could make an exact copy of that porsche out of thin air, would it be wrong to do so?

When it comes to audio, I think a lot of people believe music IS free, you listen to it at no cost on the radio... So why would they think anything about listening/downloading it on the internet?

I think the music industry slump is partially due to piracy, but not in the way they want you to believe... People are smart, they've begun checking out the artists before they go drop their cash on a CD. I firmly believe the drop in sales is because people are not buying these crappy CDs with 1-2 decent tracks and 8 tracks of total fluff/shit.

WRT demos, if companies paid more attention to getting demos out BEFORE the retail release, as well as making the demos a realistic representation of the actual game, it might make a small difference (not a real big one IMO... why DL a demo, if the full ver is as easy to get).

MLS · 17-03-2003

Piracy fits the term 'stealing', though loosely. Why? Say you stole a Porsche from a car lot. Ok, now they have one less Porsche sold, yes? I download a program and use it on a regular basis, is that one less program sold? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. In some cases the programs ARE way too expensive to purchase, ie Photoshop, CCE, AutoCAD; and the people stealing them would never have bought them in the first place. But when the answer is yes, then I would label that stealing. Games are a different story, as ALL new games are in the 40-60$ range, and have been for quite some time. I paid 70$ for Street Fighter II brand new for SNES 10? years ago.. And people are complaining about Unreal1003's debut $49.99? Come on..

Also, you said why download a demo when the full version is as easy to get. I'm talking about Online Demos, like the Unreal2003 one, where you get to experience the game's multiplayer feel. Which you obviously cannot with a downloaded version, unless you borrow a key from a friend or something, which I have no problem with as its the same as him loaning you the game.

Music is a different story, in the end it comes down to whether or not you want the artist whos album you're downloading to continue to make music. Yes you can listen to it on the radio for free, why? Because the stations pay the artist a royalty every time they play the song, in exchange you have to listen to commercials, and inane DJ prattle.

So either you can pretend you're a radio station and pay the artist every time you listen to a song.. Or you can buy their album. I think they'd be happy either way; but don't expect them to continue to make music for you if you're downloading all their albums.

Perhaps I should hire you to work for me, and ask you to work for free, because thats what you ask the artists to do when you download an album you enjoyed and never purchase it.

Nothing is ever black and white though.

/MLS

baracus · 17-03-2003

Just FYI, I'm not personally saying "why download a demo if a full ver is as easy to DL" that's just the mentality I am trying to illustrate.

If someone stole a porsche from a car lot, that would be stealing, because they took the car (the dealer wouldn't be out any money, he's insured). If the same guy could make a magical copy of the car, without depriving the dealer of the car, how is it the same?

Do you see what I meant in my initial post about how the current trains of thought on these issues are running into problems? I'm not saying piracy is right, it's still illegal, but calling it stealing is inaccurate. Unfortunately, the propaganda currently in the media likes to call it stealing, because everyone knows stealing is wrong.

My personal believe with music is that if you like a band, goto their show, buy a shirt. They really do get jack from record sales, buy their CD if you want it, but don't think it's putting a ton of food on their table, cuz it's not.

I tend to buy CDs a lot, and I can honestly say that if it wasn't for MP3s, I wouldn't buy nearly as many CDs, nor would I have broadened my music interests nearly as much as I have. Buying the CD is for ME, because they sound better than MP3s.

MLS · 17-03-2003

If someone made a magical copy of the car and gave it to everyone for free how many cars would Porsche sell?

/MLS

baracus · 17-03-2003

Not many, but is it theft?

MLS · 17-03-2003

It's Porsche's R&D that designed the car isn't it? I'd call that theft, not of the car itself, but of their design. I think Porsche would agree. I think you're misinterpreting their use of the word 'stealing'. They aren't saying you're stealing material from them, but stealing profits from them.

/MLS

GameOwl · 17-03-2003

I talked to a Audio Professor at College today he said Music Artist really don't get alot of profit from selling CD's they get a profit from going on tour. Where Record Labels get a profit from selling CD's. The Music Industry needs to have downloadable music I believe that will charge you a certain way. People would love that,downloading at fast downloading speeds rather then a .03KB at Kazaa and making audio quality 128bit rate. Man this would be great I know I would pay for it,if it was a reasonable price and what I said above. If they could even have a wide selection of pictures/information that is included with the download would be great,possibliy different downloading packages at different costs. And most of all many different servers so it wouldn't be queries and trafic. The Real question is would the Music Industry gain a profit? What business does business without gaining a profit.

*dansmug* · 17-03-2003

Does the copying hurt music and game industry? Of course, no doubt about it. Does it hurt the economy in general? No, people spend their money in other ways. For example, music sales have been going down for two or three years now, but every concert or festival gets more visitors than ever. I read a couple of days ago the ticket prices for a Neil Young concert, between €75 and €125. Still the concert was sold out. My point, money rolls, in one way or another. Not that I approve of copying, but just a thought.

*ckin2001* · 17-03-2003

rolling stone last issue had their 2nd annual richest in rock list. artists make money from lots of things. some artists get almost 2 dollars an album. some dont.

the same rolling stone reported that oftentimes, stations get money from labels to play songs, not vice versa. consider that mls

from my experience, most people pirate because they can. then again, i know people who've had counseling for downloading addiction. maybe im weird.

MLS · 17-03-2003

Downloading addiction? Thats a new one

. Wonder if I have that...

/MLS

*KitnaIsntHappy* · 17-03-2003

If you were to say that your magical car was a Porsche it would be fraud / forgery but not stealing.

However..
Piracy of cd's is not similar to this...

You are taking an actual product and copying it. Not magically creating a similar product.

Word it how you like piracy is theft..

Anyone who says otherwise is probably trying to make themselves feel better..

Cheers

baracus · 17-03-2003

Of course it's similar, the only difference is that there is no way to copy a porsche bit for bit, like there is for CDs.

Of course I must just be tryin' to make myself feel better

Having a different viewpoint isn't allowed...

*ckin2001* · 17-03-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by MLS
Downloading addiction? Thats a new one . Wonder if I have that...

/MLS

are you over 5 gb a day? 70 + peak?

Donald_Duck · 17-03-2003

I think the losses in revenue due to piracy that the companies report are way too high because I don't think that the pirates would buy the game if they couldn't DL it it's more like "I can get a copy of this game for free so why not check it out".
And also about arguments that say piracy is making the game prices so high maybe it's true but what if everybody just stopped to DL games and bought them legally instead. Would the game prices drop, not likely. Of course they could lower them but why would they do that when people buy the products anyway.

MLS · 18-03-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by ckin2001

are you over 5 gb a day? 70 + peak?

Phew, no

/MLS

Lenco · 18-03-2003

Hello to all,

Here in The Netherlands it's allowed by law:

1. To make a personal back-up of audio/games CD's you own.
2. To make a personal back-up of audio/games CD's you rent.

I have read some time ago in C'T Magazine (Dutch version) that these laws dated back to the 'good' old vinyl period.
Also there is a special tax added to every empty CDR here that goes to the artist/publishers (I believe 12 Euro cents).
And now in Germany the copyright lobby wants to put a tax on new sold computer systems (read that a few days ago on the CDFreaks site).
So if I backup a CD (for personal use), then by Dutch law it's not illegal, but I think they will change that in the future.
If I mass reproduce and sell these CD's to other people for mony then that's illegal - PRIRACY ?????
In the latest PC Gameplay there was a intresting article about this (page 23).
Meditation from the gamefront.
A personal opinion over the things in the game-industry.
Title: It's all about the money !
I have translated it from Dutch to English.
Please forgive me the typos !
Here it is:

Hmm, The Simms before it became a commercial milkcow, DTM with it's story mode, Splinter Cell
with some unique stealth elements.
Jeez these days it's difficult to find a original game at the software store.
And then I even don't talk about a original genre (these day's that's asking to much), but a
new approach of existing genre's.
And if these days even topgames, were we've all look-out for for months, don't succeed to bring
a bit of innovation (Unreal 2 anyone ?) then we all should be worrying.
Is it then really so that that all genre's are milked-out to the last drop and that the only
thing for us remains is to re-chew known material ?
Offcourse not !
What do you think about a first person shooter in the first world war ?
Imagine (in Medal Of Honor style) you can do a trench war, the battle for Verdun or a storming
near the Turkisch Gallipoli or re-live the battle for Isonzo.
And there are more conflicts that will never (or alomost never) see the daylight.
More examples ?
Western has always been one of our favorite subjects.
But besides the now prehistoric Outlaws and some mods, we keep sitting on our hunger.
None of the software developers sees any food in a western shooter.
They rather re-chew know material.
Swordfighting.....just the same.
Has anybody seen a game were unique swordfighter skills were used ?
And then I don't talk about the hundreds (or thousands) RPG's or hack'n slash games were you
only swing your sword, but have we seen a real swordcombatsim like Die By The Sword ?
It took me about 2 mins. to make up these 3 genre's of games.
No one fouls me that software developers with their enormous richdom of creativity don't succeed
to come out with somethin original.
From the big-budget games you may expect a unique gameplay.
From 'ordinary' developers you can understand that they don't take the risk of beeing rejected by
a publisher and that they choose for the more 'boring' safe way.
Fortunate that some 'little' ones keep pushing on against all odds.
The world would never have seen Tetris or a hit like Commando's when the developers didn't believe
in the quality of it.
The biggest lack of creativity is to be found in the on-line sector.
Releasing a on-line game a few years back was a original fact, but these days the cards are diffrent.
Everyone seems to have invented the chicken with the golden eggs.
And everyone wants to have a piece of a attractive pay-system were (next to to sale price of the game)
a fixed price have to be payed every month to be able to play the game on-line.
The result is that nealy every month just as much MMORPG's appear as they dissapear for the simple
reason that the market is still to small for all these games.
One MMORPG per player is often the limit, because no one want's to pay for more then one game
every month.
Because of this, a lot of games don't have enough players to survive.
It seems that the chicken has blown itself up.
Only the biggest on-line games will get the necessary amount of players and will get nice profit
margin.
It's all about the money !
Even more worrying these day's is that the prices of 'top-games' are sky-rocketing.
It won't take long or PC-games will belong in the same price-category as consolegames.
60 Euro for Unreal 2, Sim City 4, C&C Genrerals, Age Of Mythology.......the time that you as gamer
could buy all your favorite games seems to be over.
These days selecting is the word or else pay havely on the counter.
Remarkeble is the fact that the best known publishers are pushing up their prices.
If you realise beside this, that some of these '60 euro' games will be played out in 8 hours, it will
become a expensive joke.
Let's all hope that not all publishers follow this example and push up their prices.
On the long long run this will only do more harm then good for the game-industry and it will only
provoke more piracy.
And let piracy be the main reason for these high prices.
It's the known never ending circle.
Strangly, only the 'top-games', from witch they know will sell good, get these firm prices.
The not 'top' games seems to keep their 'normal' prices.
Impossible Creatures will cost strangly enough 'only' 50 Euro.
It's only understandeble that gamers get frustrated when they are confronted with a bad game.
A bad buy not only means a lot of frustration these days, it means for a poor student almost a hole
in his hand !
Curious were this will end.........

The web-site of PC Gameplay can be found here.
And the article is in the magazine you see there (March 2003 Edition).
Best regards,
Lenco

DryBaboon · 18-03-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by MLS
perhaps someone will come to the realization that they should make a pseudo single-player game, where all the levels are stored on a server and people log in to play them alone

So plangent - a special modern type of loneliness. Playing with yourself across the ether.
Could this be even more depressing and antisocial than mmorpgs?

snv202 · 19-03-2003

This is one of the first forums that I have ever joined. I've been a member here for a long time now. Never posted much though. I do manage to break away from my sites and stop by from time to time. When I read this thread I just needed to put my .02 in haha. SW was my first love for the longest time. Since then I moved move into sat tv. Wether we are called pirates, hackers, testers, or ect. ect. . Most of us do things for the fun of it, we want to know how to, we want to know if we can, we just can't leave things the way they are, or like me we just love to play

. For me I think the line is drawn when things are done more for money then the love of your hobby. But as I said it's just my .02

.

*kwkard* · 20-03-2003

since artists get so little of the money for their cds, its no wonder people don't buy them. The evil record labels are greedy and want 80% of t he profit for themselves. The consumers don't want that. They want the money they spend on cds to go to the artists themselves.

If we got rid of record companies completly, then more people would buy cds. Why buy a cd and let money go to record companies who will use that money for legal fees to sue you or your friends for downloading some music.

I for example, haven't bought a cd in quite some time, when i want to aupport the artist, i go to the concert. The make lots more at concerts than off their cds.

Best solution= get rid of RIAA and record companies.

A side note: why are they still called record companies? Wouldn't a more appropriate name be music companies?

16-03-2003	#1
GameOwl CD Freaks Rookie Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 35	My thoughts on Piracy I've never ran another PC Game security besides Safe Disk and SecureROM in Amercia. While I hear of Tages,StarForc ect. securites accross the world. This is interesting most likely since one of Sony's SecureROM departments is in America and Macrovision is based in California. Macrovision is desperate for a better PC Game Security,and Sony knows SecureROM new has been beaten. I wouldn't be surprised if they read these fourms and other one's to find out what we are doing right so they can't counter that and improve there security. Small third party software companies see this a way to make programs to make a copyable CD/DVD for the End User to make a legit single back up copy if they are the copyrighted owner. Software companies see this as a profit to gain for them since disc media security has been so infourmative throughout the internet today like fourms and websites like these. In America around the year I believe in 1994 there was a law that if you are the legal copyrighted own of a disc you are allowed to make one back up copy. I feel this law will eventually be broken and a single back up copy in America will no loner be legal. Just look how early versions of Clone CD has Amplify Weak Sectors/Hide CD-r Media isn't supposed to be used in America and Japan cause its illegal. Its like a war on drugs its never gonna end I believe,to stop piracy for good. I myself believe software companies should get there deserved profit. Its interesting how people won't and believe stealing from a store is wrong but yet pirate copyrighted media;they believe its not as bad because they think only a few people do it. One person says "only a few do it" then everybody thinks that and it goes into large numbers and big time money gets lost to the companies who made the product. Mainly using a product without paying for it is biting the hand that feeds you. People pirate for many different reasons: 1) They wanna gain a profit. 2) They believe products are overpriced. 3) They think its cool to break a law. 4) They do it for friends and/or family. 5)They dislike they company and/or company. 6)They believe things should be free. When it all comes down to it piracy of intlectual property hurts the economy,and put people and software companies out of jobs and business. Picture you working hard for your paycheck at your job and then seeing a large quanity of money on the paystub deducted by welfare knowing some people on welfare don't deserve to be on it. That is how movies/audio/software companies feel when there interlectual property is pirated. I know some people go to these fourms for reasons I won't say here. All I'm asking is think of what your doing,think of what I said. Sincerely GameOwl

16-03-2003	#2
G@M3FR3@K Senior Moderator Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Utrèg, The Netherlands Posts: 10,654	Nice thoughts but I'll move this thread to our living room. __________________ CDFreaks.com - Independent CD and DVD recording news around the clock! I do not provide support via PM or e-mail, use our Forum instead. Need some help? Please use our search function first. When asking for help, please detail your problem! Become a member of this forum, it's free! Register here!

17-03-2003	#5
MLS MyCE Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Valencia, California Posts: 443	I don't think that piracy is hurting the game market as much as people think. If you look at the percentage of games released that are multiplayer, and require a cdkey to play online, it constitutes a heavy majority. People may download a pirated copy of the game, and check out single player, and if it seems like a fun game, purchase the real thing to be able to play online. The only problem with this is the single player games, since there is no incentive to purchase a single player game, perhaps someone will come to the realization that they should make a pseudo single-player game, where all the levels are stored on a server and people log in to play them alone, or with friends (a la MMORPGs). This allows for the game to expand at the will of the company who makes it, making for a much more 'replayable' single player game. The problem with this, is that the companies will lose the customers who do download games to try them out, and buy them if they like them, the solution to this is good demos.. Hopefully game companies will pay more attention to demos as I think they are more important than they realize. One thing that does irk me is when people say they pirate because they can't afford it, as though this somehow justifies the act. There are many things I can't afford, such as a Porshe, my own helicopter, the playboy mansion... But it doesn't mean I have the right to steal them. /MLS __________________ Intel Q6600 G0 / ASUS P5E / 2GB Mushkin DDR2-800 ATI Radeon 5850 @ 775/1125 / WD WD3200AAKS 320GB HT-Omega Striker 7.1 / Yamaha 5.1 HT Toshiba SD-M1712 fw: J004 / Samsung SH-S203B fw: SB04 Windows 7 Ultimate 32bit

17-03-2003	#6
GameOwl CD Freaks Rookie Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 35	Interesting Results I would have to agree. Its a war out there. Some pirates tell me that they pirate cause software is to buggy and glitchy. But to think that there is so much programming needed in making things work,stable,and compatiable ect. That they feel it shouldn't be paid for in full price. I like these fourms its interesting on peoples views all over the world and how they see things.

17-03-2003	#8
MLS MyCE Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Valencia, California Posts: 443	Piracy fits the term 'stealing', though loosely. Why? Say you stole a Porsche from a car lot. Ok, now they have one less Porsche sold, yes? I download a program and use it on a regular basis, is that one less program sold? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. In some cases the programs ARE way too expensive to purchase, ie Photoshop, CCE, AutoCAD; and the people stealing them would never have bought them in the first place. But when the answer is yes, then I would label that stealing. Games are a different story, as ALL new games are in the 40-60$ range, and have been for quite some time. I paid 70$ for Street Fighter II brand new for SNES 10? years ago.. And people are complaining about Unreal1003's debut $49.99? Come on.. Also, you said why download a demo when the full version is as easy to get. I'm talking about Online Demos, like the Unreal2003 one, where you get to experience the game's multiplayer feel. Which you obviously cannot with a downloaded version, unless you borrow a key from a friend or something, which I have no problem with as its the same as him loaning you the game. Music is a different story, in the end it comes down to whether or not you want the artist whos album you're downloading to continue to make music. Yes you can listen to it on the radio for free, why? Because the stations pay the artist a royalty every time they play the song, in exchange you have to listen to commercials, and inane DJ prattle. So either you can pretend you're a radio station and pay the artist every time you listen to a song.. Or you can buy their album. I think they'd be happy either way; but don't expect them to continue to make music for you if you're downloading all their albums. Perhaps I should hire you to work for me, and ask you to work for free, because thats what you ask the artists to do when you download an album you enjoyed and never purchase it. Nothing is ever black and white though. /MLS __________________ Intel Q6600 G0 / ASUS P5E / 2GB Mushkin DDR2-800 ATI Radeon 5850 @ 775/1125 / WD WD3200AAKS 320GB HT-Omega Striker 7.1 / Yamaha 5.1 HT Toshiba SD-M1712 fw: J004 / Samsung SH-S203B fw: SB04 Windows 7 Ultimate 32bit

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17-03-2003	#7
baracus CD Freaks Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 128	I think a lot of people keep mislabelling it stealing. Piracy isn't stealing, it's unauthorized duplication/distribution (copyright violation). If you could make an exact copy of that porsche out of thin air, would it be wrong to do so? When it comes to audio, I think a lot of people believe music IS free, you listen to it at no cost on the radio... So why would they think anything about listening/downloading it on the internet? I think the music industry slump is partially due to piracy, but not in the way they want you to believe... People are smart, they've begun checking out the artists before they go drop their cash on a CD. I firmly believe the drop in sales is because people are not buying these crappy CDs with 1-2 decent tracks and 8 tracks of total fluff/shit. WRT demos, if companies paid more attention to getting demos out BEFORE the retail release, as well as making the demos a realistic representation of the actual game, it might make a small difference (not a real big one IMO... why DL a demo, if the full ver is as easy to get).

17-03-2003	#13
GameOwl CD Freaks Rookie Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 35	Man look what I started..... I talked to a Audio Professor at College today he said Music Artist really don't get alot of profit from selling CD's they get a profit from going on tour. Where Record Labels get a profit from selling CD's. The Music Industry needs to have downloadable music I believe that will charge you a certain way. People would love that,downloading at fast downloading speeds rather then a .03KB at Kazaa and making audio quality 128bit rate. Man this would be great I know I would pay for it,if it was a reasonable price and what I said above. If they could even have a wide selection of pictures/information that is included with the download would be great,possibliy different downloading packages at different costs. And most of all many different servers so it wouldn't be queries and trafic. The Real question is would the Music Industry gain a profit? What business does business without gaining a profit.

17-03-2003	#14
dansmug Lord of the Strings Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: België Posts: 2,421	Does the copying hurt music and game industry? Of course, no doubt about it. Does it hurt the economy in general? No, people spend their money in other ways. For example, music sales have been going down for two or three years now, but every concert or festival gets more visitors than ever. I read a couple of days ago the ticket prices for a Neil Young concert, between €75 and €125. Still the concert was sold out. My point, money rolls, in one way or another. Not that I approve of copying, but just a thought. __________________ The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of a passionate intensity. http://www.mandrivaclub.nl Chat with fellow freakers (and meet the famous Ruff-Next): IRCnet > #cdfreaks (Dutch) & #cdfreaks-int

17-03-2003	#15
ckin2001 MyCE Resident Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Strongbadia Posts: 3,467	rolling stone last issue had their 2nd annual richest in rock list. artists make money from lots of things. some artists get almost 2 dollars an album. some dont. the same rolling stone reported that oftentimes, stations get money from labels to play songs, not vice versa. consider that mls from my experience, most people pirate because they can. then again, i know people who've had counseling for downloading addiction. maybe im weird. __________________ www.livingwithoutmicrosoft.org last 5 cd's Avril Lavigne - Whatever the new one is called Lucky Boys Confusion - Throwing the Game lostprophets - Start Something Story of the Year - Page Avenue Flaming Lips - Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots Don't let schooling interfere with your education. -Mark Twain

17-03-2003	#16
MLS MyCE Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Valencia, California Posts: 443	Downloading addiction? Thats a new one . Wonder if I have that... /MLS __________________ Intel Q6600 G0 / ASUS P5E / 2GB Mushkin DDR2-800 ATI Radeon 5850 @ 775/1125 / WD WD3200AAKS 320GB HT-Omega Striker 7.1 / Yamaha 5.1 HT Toshiba SD-M1712 fw: J004 / Samsung SH-S203B fw: SB04 Windows 7 Ultimate 32bit

17-03-2003	#17
KitnaIsntHappy CDFreaks Resident Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Monsterland Posts: 508	If you were to say that your magical car was a Porsche it would be fraud / forgery but not stealing. However.. Piracy of cd's is not similar to this... You are taking an actual product and copying it. Not magically creating a similar product. Word it how you like piracy is theft.. Anyone who says otherwise is probably trying to make themselves feel better.. Cheers

17-03-2003	#20
Donald_Duck CD Freaks Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Land of the trädgårdstomtar Posts: 457	I think the losses in revenue due to piracy that the companies report are way too high because I don't think that the pirates would buy the game if they couldn't DL it it's more like "I can get a copy of this game for free so why not check it out". And also about arguments that say piracy is making the game prices so high maybe it's true but what if everybody just stopped to DL games and bought them legally instead. Would the game prices drop, not likely. Of course they could lower them but why would they do that when people buy the products anyway. __________________ Add yourself to the cdfreaks frappr page! now! Quick guide to avoid problems with computers revision 2. 1) Make at least 3 backups (preferrably off site) 2) Stay the hell away from Partition Magic 3) Added by popular demand Avoid accidentially ghosting over your disk.

18-03-2003	#22
Lenco CD Freaks Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 92	Hello to all, Here in The Netherlands it's allowed by law: 1. To make a personal back-up of audio/games CD's you own. 2. To make a personal back-up of audio/games CD's you rent. I have read some time ago in C'T Magazine (Dutch version) that these laws dated back to the 'good' old vinyl period. Also there is a special tax added to every empty CDR here that goes to the artist/publishers (I believe 12 Euro cents). And now in Germany the copyright lobby wants to put a tax on new sold computer systems (read that a few days ago on the CDFreaks site). So if I backup a CD (for personal use), then by Dutch law it's not illegal, but I think they will change that in the future. If I mass reproduce and sell these CD's to other people for mony then that's illegal - PRIRACY ????? In the latest PC Gameplay there was a intresting article about this (page 23). Meditation from the gamefront. A personal opinion over the things in the game-industry. Title: It's all about the money ! I have translated it from Dutch to English. Please forgive me the typos ! Here it is: Hmm, The Simms before it became a commercial milkcow, DTM with it's story mode, Splinter Cell with some unique stealth elements. Jeez these days it's difficult to find a original game at the software store. And then I even don't talk about a original genre (these day's that's asking to much), but a new approach of existing genre's. And if these days even topgames, were we've all look-out for for months, don't succeed to bring a bit of innovation (Unreal 2 anyone ?) then we all should be worrying. Is it then really so that that all genre's are milked-out to the last drop and that the only thing for us remains is to re-chew known material ? Offcourse not ! What do you think about a first person shooter in the first world war ? Imagine (in Medal Of Honor style) you can do a trench war, the battle for Verdun or a storming near the Turkisch Gallipoli or re-live the battle for Isonzo. And there are more conflicts that will never (or alomost never) see the daylight. More examples ? Western has always been one of our favorite subjects. But besides the now prehistoric Outlaws and some mods, we keep sitting on our hunger. None of the software developers sees any food in a western shooter. They rather re-chew know material. Swordfighting.....just the same. Has anybody seen a game were unique swordfighter skills were used ? And then I don't talk about the hundreds (or thousands) RPG's or hack'n slash games were you only swing your sword, but have we seen a real swordcombatsim like Die By The Sword ? It took me about 2 mins. to make up these 3 genre's of games. No one fouls me that software developers with their enormous richdom of creativity don't succeed to come out with somethin original. From the big-budget games you may expect a unique gameplay. From 'ordinary' developers you can understand that they don't take the risk of beeing rejected by a publisher and that they choose for the more 'boring' safe way. Fortunate that some 'little' ones keep pushing on against all odds. The world would never have seen Tetris or a hit like Commando's when the developers didn't believe in the quality of it. The biggest lack of creativity is to be found in the on-line sector. Releasing a on-line game a few years back was a original fact, but these days the cards are diffrent. Everyone seems to have invented the chicken with the golden eggs. And everyone wants to have a piece of a attractive pay-system were (next to to sale price of the game) a fixed price have to be payed every month to be able to play the game on-line. The result is that nealy every month just as much MMORPG's appear as they dissapear for the simple reason that the market is still to small for all these games. One MMORPG per player is often the limit, because no one want's to pay for more then one game every month. Because of this, a lot of games don't have enough players to survive. It seems that the chicken has blown itself up. Only the biggest on-line games will get the necessary amount of players and will get nice profit margin. It's all about the money ! Even more worrying these day's is that the prices of 'top-games' are sky-rocketing. It won't take long or PC-games will belong in the same price-category as consolegames. 60 Euro for Unreal 2, Sim City 4, C&C Genrerals, Age Of Mythology.......the time that you as gamer could buy all your favorite games seems to be over. These days selecting is the word or else pay havely on the counter. Remarkeble is the fact that the best known publishers are pushing up their prices. If you realise beside this, that some of these '60 euro' games will be played out in 8 hours, it will become a expensive joke. Let's all hope that not all publishers follow this example and push up their prices. On the long long run this will only do more harm then good for the game-industry and it will only provoke more piracy. And let piracy be the main reason for these high prices. It's the known never ending circle. Strangly, only the 'top-games', from witch they know will sell good, get these firm prices. The not 'top' games seems to keep their 'normal' prices. Impossible Creatures will cost strangly enough 'only' 50 Euro. It's only understandeble that gamers get frustrated when they are confronted with a bad game. A bad buy not only means a lot of frustration these days, it means for a poor student almost a hole in his hand ! Curious were this will end......... The web-site of PC Gameplay can be found here. And the article is in the magazine you see there (March 2003 Edition). Best regards, Lenco __________________ AMD x64 2 6000+ MSI K9N Diamond 4 GB Twinmos Memory Pioneer 111D & 112D DVD±R Club 3D 8800GTS SB Audigy __________________ Last edited by Lenco; 18-03-2003 at 15:20.

19-03-2003	#24
snv202 CD Freaks Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: New Jersey Posts: 79	This is one of the first forums that I have ever joined. I've been a member here for a long time now. Never posted much though. I do manage to break away from my sites and stop by from time to time. When I read this thread I just needed to put my .02 in haha. SW was my first love for the longest time. Since then I moved move into sat tv. Wether we are called pirates, hackers, testers, or ect. ect. . Most of us do things for the fun of it, we want to know how to, we want to know if we can, we just can't leave things the way they are, or like me we just love to play . For me I think the line is drawn when things are done more for money then the love of your hobby. But as I said it's just my .02 .

20-03-2003	#25
kwkard CDFreaks Resident Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: def recursion(): recursion() Posts: 1,813	since artists get so little of the money for their cds, its no wonder people don't buy them. The evil record labels are greedy and want 80% of t he profit for themselves. The consumers don't want that. They want the money they spend on cds to go to the artists themselves. If we got rid of record companies completly, then more people would buy cds. Why buy a cd and let money go to record companies who will use that money for legal fees to sue you or your friends for downloading some music. I for example, haven't bought a cd in quite some time, when i want to aupport the artist, i go to the concert. The make lots more at concerts than off their cds. Best solution= get rid of RIAA and record companies. A side note: why are they still called record companies? Wouldn't a more appropriate name be music companies? __________________ I smart, learn fast. The Coolest Page Ever My drives: Benq 1640 BSLB Benq 1625 BBHA (Rebadge HP 640c)(Lightscribe) LG GSA-4163B A104 NEC ND-3520A 1.04 NEC ND-3500AG LD 2.FD Liteon SOHW-812s@832s VS0E Liteon SOHW-1633S BS41 Liteon SOHC 5232K NK0H Yamaha CRW-F1 1.0g And yes these are all in one PC. Hehe.

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